Grace Pettis: 00:00:07

So I, had been writing this song and, and writing songs for me is like this. Cheap therapy, right? You know, it's like a way to like process things that don't make a lot of sense and try to make sense of them, and and handle stuff that's complicated and nuanced in a way that you can't in just a conversation or a text or it's like you need to put it into some kind of a medium where you know I think that's what art does so well. It's like you could read a dictionary definition of An eagle or you could like read a poem about one and which one would give you a better experience, right? Of a fuller experience of what that thing is. So for me writing a song helped me process it and sort of understand my own journey a little bit.

Jason English (Host): 00:00:59

Welcome to Curious Goldfish, a podcast community where music and curiosity come together through interesting conversations with the music makers of our world. I'm your host, Jason English. You can find Curious Goldfish and all the major podcasts and social media platforms. And of course we have all of our content on our website, curiousgoldfish. com. I don't have a lot in common with Grace Pettis. She's a beautiful young singer songwriter who has bright red hair with a strong, clear singing voice. I'm old. I have a face for podcasting and my male pattern baldness is unfortunately a thing. Also, I can't sing or play an instrument, but we do share one connection. We both were raised in the church and the fairly conservative evangelical community, very much prevalent in the Midwest and in the American South. I'm going to come back to that, but for a minute or two, I'm going to try and make a couple of things connect here as I tee up the conversation I had with grace back in January. As you may know by now, this podcast is inspired by the television series Ted Lasso, but what does that mean exactly? It can mean any number of things, but mainly it's all about mindset. It's about mindset around self belief, teamwork, leadership, empathy, and yes, curiosity. but one of the more important aspects of the show that resonated with me is decency. How we as humans, whether at work or in personal relationships, treat one another and are there for one another. No matter your background, gender, or status in life. One of the most impactful examples of this, you know, this idea of decency came pretty late in the third and final season. So if you haven't watched the entire series yet, here's your spoiler alert. You might want to skip forward to my conversation with Grace, but I hope this scene gives everyone the right context before we jump into that interview. This scene is about Colin Hughes, one of the tier two characters and a player on AFC Richmond. We learn in season three that he is gay, and he's put in a position to come out to his teammates following a crazy sequence involving a rowdy and rude fan yelling nasty things to the players before halftime. We don't actually hear how he does it. Just the immediate reaction of his team. First by Danny Rojas, and then by Coach Lasso. Here's that sequence.

undefined: 00:03:51

So we cool, of course Yeah Of course, it's cool Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes amigo thousand percent. You're gay big whoop, but we don't care right guys actually, yeah Colin we do care, you know When I was growing up back in Kansas city, I had a buddy, uh named stevie jewell

Jason English (Host): 00:04:19

So Ted goes into a story about how his friend was a fan of an American football team that Ted actually hated. And for two years when that team played in the Super Bowl, no one watched the game with Stevie. I guess he was just left alone. And Ted continues.

undefined: 00:04:35

Because I wasn't there. Because I didn't care. But I should have cared. You know? I should have supported him. I should have been at his house both them years. Sharing that seven layer dip with my friend. But the point is, Colin, we don't not care. We care very much. We care about who you are and what you must have been going through. Yeah. Hey, from now on, you don't have to go through it all by yourself. Yeah. All right. Yeah. You heard that. You got us, mate. We got you.

Jason English (Host): 00:05:25

What a moment, what a moment of leadership and empathy. I've watched the series many, many times and I don't really recall Ted going into too much detail about his religious beliefs, about spirituality or anything like that. But in that moment he was just being decent and making the point that it's just not good enough for us to just casually accept a situation and look the other way. But genuine interest and empathy is required when people we care about feel isolated. So back to my earlier point about grace Pettis and what I have in common with her, our heritage in evangelicalism, though, Ted Lasso isn't overtly spiritual, you could make the case that in that moment he was ultimately Christlike being there for his teammate in a very vulnerable situation, but the modern day church doesn't have a great history when it comes to being As Christlike as a fictional soccer coach on Apple TV plus for whatever reason this issue of homosexuality has spiraled too many people into chaos of arguing about doctrine or scripture meanings or who's getting into heaven and hell so much so that many have forgotten that we just need to be decent. So there was a musician, Rich Mullins, my favorite all time artist in the contemporary Christian music genre who called this out explicitly. Rich, unfortunately died in a car accident in 1997. I encourage you to look him up on YouTube. He was a Christian who spoke with clarity and conviction. And here he is in the mid 1990s, basically 30 years ago, talking about this very issue. To an audience who undoubtedly was uncomfortable hearing rich describe his challenge of writing a song about his best friend for fear that his audience would reject it. He was scared that they would think it was too much about homosexuality when all he wanted to do was share about how much he loved his friend. Apologies for the audio, but here is rich.

undefined: 00:07:33

Home, and, when I get there, I, I get real uncomfortable, cause it doesn't really feel like home, either. Just, I wrote a line for Beaker one time, cause you know how hard it is for guys to tell each other that they love each other? We're just, we're so homophobic that we can't even be honest. And, uh, so I really wanted to tell Beaker I love him, so I wrote, I wrote this really stupid song for him that I thought was kind of funny. And, uh, I included a woman's name because, because my audience is It's so homophobic, that I, if I wrote a song for a guy, they would stop buying my records and let's face it, I gotta make a living.

Jason English (Host): 00:08:24

That clip is amazing for so many reasons from the awkward laughter of an audience that was basically undressed. Without even knowing it to the fact that one of Christian music's most prolific songwriters had to change the name of a song for fear of backlash. I am 1000 percent sure that if Rich was alive today, the song would be called "What Beaker Said" instead of "What Susan Said". You should look that song up too. that's the environment. Grace and I were raised in, it's not all regrettable. We both hold things very dear from the faith and from that community. But in her song, Landon about a childhood friend who eventually comes out, grace calls herself out and reminds us all that we can do better. And we can be better. We can be more decent. And there are likely people out there who deserve our apology. If a soccer coach who doesn't claim any allegiance to any specific faith can treat people with dignity and respect, maybe those of us who proudly claim a God of love can as well. The conversation with Grace Pettis begs this question, and she closes us out with a performance of Landon. It's an amazing song. Look her up on Spotify, look the song up on YouTube and listen to her performance today. Grace Pettis. Let's dive in. Grace. So nice to meet you. Thanks for your time.

Grace Pettis: 00:09:48

Of course. Yeah!

Jason English (Host): 00:09:49

We're here watching the sunset in Florida.

Grace Pettis: 00:09:51

This view does suck.

Jason English (Host): 00:09:52

It does not suck. I I mean, Nashville is cool,

Grace Pettis: 00:09:56

Ah, is it? this.

Jason English (Host): 00:09:58

but it's not this,

Grace Pettis: 00:09:59

I don't know, it's not the beach.

Jason English (Host): 00:10:00

it's not the beach. All right. So you hear the 30A songwriters festival have, is this Are you a veteran here? Have you been here before or is this your first

Grace Pettis: 00:10:08

first time here was last year and strictly in a girlfriend capacity Robby Hecht. So this is my first year as an artist. I basically just emailed Russell and was like and was Robbie's coming anyway. I'm coming with him. You might as well let me play.

Jason English (Host): 00:10:21

That's smart, I love that. Be staying

Grace Pettis: 00:10:22

I'm gonna be staying in the room anyway, like this will be the cheapest situation for you of all time.

Jason English (Host): 00:10:28

How's it been for you this year as a performer?

Grace Pettis: 00:10:30

It's been fantastic. It's just like a summer camp, family reunion sort of vibe because these are a ton of people that I know and have been friends with for over a decade that are just, you run into each other once a year in whatever their home state is, and you play a gig or whatever tour you happen to align on. And then, you know, you don't see him for a year. And so you anytime there's a conference or a festival or something like this, where we all get to be in one space together. It's just such a party. It's such a good time.

Jason English (Host): 00:10:55

you see any performances?

Grace Pettis: 00:10:57

Oh, yeah. Yeah, we've

Jason English (Host): 00:10:58

yeah. What stuck out to you? I

Grace Pettis: 00:11:00

Well, I got to see Roseanne Cash, and John Leventhal. And that was, that was the highlight, I think, obviously. I mean, it was from very far away. So it was a very small Roseanne Cash on a stage with a very big crowd of people. But, uh, but that was a highlight for me for sure.

Jason English (Host): 00:11:13

So I saw them. That was, it was like March 10th, 2020 in Boulder. Mm-Hmm. at the Boulder Theater. And, I'm almost 50. I was the youngest person in the, in the audience. But it was right at the start of Covid. It was the last show I saw for, you know, a year and a half. But I remember thinking. Okay, that's like this is it, you know, and she was amazing and John Leventhal's a legend, you know, I mean So that yeah, that's awesome So I want to get to some of your music and what you have planned for this year When did working woman come out?

Grace Pettis: 00:11:45

Uh, the record came out in 2021. Okay.

Jason English (Host): 00:11:48

okay, so there's a song on

Grace Pettis: 00:11:49

song on there.

Jason English (Host): 00:11:51

There's a few songs on there, but there's a song on there that just Spoke to me for a number of reasons. It's called Landon. Can you give us the headlines about the genesis of that and then I want to, I'm going to read some lyrics because I think it's the lyrics are worthy of an out loud reading because I think the audience needs to know the depth of, what you're doing, but where'd that come from?

Grace Pettis: 00:12:11

Okay, yeah, sure. It's autobiographical. It's a song I wrote for a dear friend of mine who was my best friend in high school, Landon Beatty. And, he came out. He's gay. He came out right after high school. We went to school in a very small town in, rural Alabama. So, sort of a homogenous, very conservative, very religious community. Where It's kind of hard to find your tribe if you're different in any way, at all. So as a gay kid, that's, that's a tough environment to come up in. He waited until right after he left, to kind of make the rounds of the phone calls and come out to a few close people. And from his like recollection of those phone calls and how they went, my response was one of the nicer ones. Which tells you a lot, because my response was basically like a canned You know, evangelical script that was like, love the sinner, hate the sin, and you can be gay, but you're not allowed to like date anyone, and you should pray to be not gay anymore, and you know, that sort of thing that I had been taught to say. Um, well, there's these Bible verses, so I guess you can't be gay, and like, you know, like even as I was responding in that way to this really vulnerable, courageous moment for him, I didn't respond with vulnerability, and I didn't respond with courage. Or with love, like I responded with just this sort of pre packaged answer that was not personal for me in any way and I hadn't had to do any work or any wrestling with it. I had never prayed about it, you know, and, uh, as it came out of my mouth, even I think there was a piece of me that just felt like Something's off, you know, like your conscience just sort of prickles you and just something tugging at your sleeve a little bit Like maybe you should take another look at this And so I spent the next four years in college just like I myself for for context I'm like the straightest straight girl of all time like never even I mean, I know there's a spectrum But I'm like very far in one end of it Unfortunately because women are awesome. But uh, but yeah, I just I spent a lot of time in college, like I joined the gay club, the queer club, you know, GBL, TSA, it was at the time. And I was like the only straight Christian girl in it, and I didn't know what I thought about it at the time, I joined it to get more information, to like, put a face to some things that I didn't have a face on, you know, or hadn't before Landon. I took a class on gay and lesbian literature. I also took a lot of classes in, in early Christianity, and I minored in religious studies, and so I read a lot of texts, and I, um, did a lot of praying, and, I spent a lot of time thinking and wrestling with a lot of preconceptions, not just about

Jason English (Host): 00:14:42

yeah, yeah.

Grace Pettis: 00:14:42

also, you know, and I came out of that with a stronger faith than I'd had going in. It sort of was less about belief in the head and more about faith in the heart and, and, you know, a deeper trust in God and, and also like completely a 180. On my theology in terms of, queer people and how the church should treat them or how they should be allowed to live as moral people, you know? So I just did a total 180 on that and then I realized that I owed my friend an apology. So I, had been writing this song and, and writing songs for me is like this. Cheap therapy, right? You know, it's like a way to like process things that don't make a lot of sense and try to make sense of them, and and handle stuff that's complicated and nuanced in a way that you can't in just a conversation or a text or it's like you need to put it into some kind of a medium where you know I think that's what art does so well. It's like you could read a dictionary definition of An eagle or you could like read a poem about one and which one would give you a better experience, right? Of a fuller experience of like what that thing is. So for me writing a song helped me process it and sort of understand my own journey a little bit. Then I sent that apology song that I had written to Landon. I had already apologized to him, but I felt like I just, there was a closeness that we had in high school that, you know, everybody listening can relate. Everybody had that friend in high school that's like closer than family and you've probably never had a friend that close again. And it was that closeness that I really, missed. And I wanted to connect with him and feel just like that we deeply understood each other again. So the song was like a catalyst for us, uh, reconnecting and becoming close friends again. And he really loved it. He wanted me to play it out. I said, you know, listen, if you don't want me to ever play this, I won't. It's his name, and his name is in the chorus. So I would never have played it without his permission. Or encouragement, but he really wanted me to so I started playing it, played it for a lot of years. And then when I signed my first record deal, it's the song that I'm the most proud of, of all my songs.

Jason English (Host): 00:16:40

Yeah.

Grace Pettis: 00:16:40

because it's, you know, there's like, which one is like, technically the best craftsmanship or whatever, and I don't know, you know, someone else can probably tell me, but this is the one that, I feel like has done the most good in the world, where I've felt the most useful. So I'm re very proud of it, and it's sparked a lot of conversations around merch tables that I'm really proud of, um,

Jason English (Host): 00:17:00

Well if you grow up in the church they talk a lot about being a vessel,

Grace Pettis: 00:17:04

mhm, yeah.

Jason English (Host): 00:17:05

like that.

Grace Pettis: 00:17:06

There's that st. Paul prayer like make me a make me an instrument of your of your Grace is it or make me an instrument of your love love make me an instrument of your love Yeah, this feels like that like I when I'm up there playing this song. I feel that I am doing that in my life

Jason English (Host): 00:17:21

well, I'm gonna read a couple lyrics real quick. Uh, just just because I think the spoken word is powerful as Is a sung word but from the day we met I was never the same You were the mascot at the football game big brown eyes in a Wildcat suit hugging your knees outside the classroom Favorite child of a single mother. I loved you more than a boyfriend more than a brother And then it goes on and it says The way you drove yourself to church every Sunday, we swore we'd make it out of this town one day and I called you a sinner. Ain't no sin bigger and there ain't no damn thing wrong with you. As far as I can tell. No, there ain't no hell. Much worse than the one I put you through. That's awesome. Right. And cause I grew up in the buckle of the Bible belt in Missouri and there's a lot of things that I still hold dear about community. Hymns, uh, scripture, the fact that we're, you know, we're not alone and that there's a creator and, God sent his son, for our sins, all those things. But I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's so much tribalism that goes down. Yeah, exactly. No, exactly. It's like, you're supposed to disregard that for this.

Grace Pettis: 00:18:29

I haven't and I don't intend to

Jason English (Host): 00:18:30

That's great to hear. Right. Um, but I think on this. Topic in particular. I think the church got it all wrong. You know, they got it all wrong. I

Grace Pettis: 00:18:39

well we got a lot of stuff

Jason English (Host): 00:18:40

yeah, they got it. They got it wrong. Cause it's like, um, at the day, these people just want to love and be loved

Grace Pettis: 00:18:46

Yeah

Jason English (Host): 00:18:47

and just think about all the broken souls and broken hearts and the disregard and the, in the, ignoring and the, less than that they felt. Yeah. By Christians who are supposed to be followers of Christ,

Grace Pettis: 00:19:03

by Christians specifically and also by the culture at large. I mean, like the, you know, it was classified as a mental disorder to be gay until like the 70s or something. So, I mean, right. yeah, but, but yes, you're right, like, you know, for a religion that, you know, ostensibly the tenant, the main tenant is like, love your neighbor, right? We are not very courageous about the way that we love people who aren't like us.

Jason English (Host): 00:19:28

Congratulations to you.

Grace Pettis: 00:19:29

Well, thank

Jason English (Host): 00:19:30

Congratulations to Landon.

Grace Pettis: 00:19:31

Thanks. Yeah, he's doing great, by the way. He's in LA. He did the choreography and acted and danced in the music video. So

Jason English (Host): 00:19:37

gosh. Yeah.

Grace Pettis: 00:19:38

like now

Jason English (Host): 00:19:38

everybody should check

Grace Pettis: 00:19:39

a grown up. Yeah.

Jason English (Host): 00:19:40

No. Yeah. No, it's great. We were talking about this earlier. It reminds me of the song Tony by Patty Griffin.

Grace Pettis: 00:19:46

I love Patty Griffin, but I'm a huge Patty

Jason English (Host): 00:19:48

Yeah. I mean, a lot of, you know, a lot of similarities with you.

Grace Pettis: 00:19:52

I've gotten that a lot and I didn't ever think about it. I definitely didn't think about it when I was writing the song. But afterwards I've gotten that comment from a lot of people, and people have sort of drawn a connection and said like, Oh no, did he die? You know, did he kill himself? And I said, no, no, no, no. Um, but there's, there's a line about the phone call that people always think is like a phone call, you know, saying that someone's passed away, and it wasn't that. It was a phone call. It was the phone call from Landon of him coming out is, is the call that I'm referring to. But like, yeah, I can see why people might, like, think that. Um, but yeah, no, it has a happy ending. We're friends again. And, um, that's why I think it's so important to like important to Apologize to people when we screw up because life is so short and like he's such a cool person and I'm, I'm so much better off having him in my life, you know, and I feel like there's so many apologies that are owed to the queer community going back like the past few decades that are, you know, long overdue, but, but even, I mean, I mean, among people that are living today that maybe don't feel the way that they did in the eighties, you know, but have never taken the time to Track those people down and try to make amends. And I think it's so important because it leaves such deep psychological hurt and damage to be rejected. When you have the courage to be like, this is who I am. And you show this really core part of yourself. Not the only part of yourself, but something really central to who you are. And then it's met with just like, rejection. That's so psychologically damaging. So I think it's really important for us to do the work of Where have I wronged people and going back and trying to make it right as much as you can, you know You can't make it right, but but it's never too late to

Jason English (Host): 00:21:26

no matter if you're 20 years old, 30 years old, 70 years old. That's

Grace Pettis: 00:21:30

That's some of the coolest things that have happened because of this song is I've had people that have been like I've got a friend From high school. I'm gonna look them up on Facebook. I'm gonna send him an apology like I'm gonna and it just to know That there's love going out in the world is just it makes it gets me goosebumps just to think

Jason English (Host): 00:21:46

think about it. Yeah, I feel really good

Grace Pettis: 00:21:48

Yeah, I feel really, privileged, I guess is the word, to, I just feel like, this, Landon and I have talked about this too, we just feel like our story has helped make other people's stories better, and it's a really good feeling to feel useful, and that feels so redemptive, it feels so, cathartic,

Jason English (Host): 00:22:04

You're, I think, passionate about, hence the working woman title, right? Is women empowerment. Feminism, all those things. And I think, you know, the genesis of this podcast is the inspiration behind the show, Ted Lasso and the character and stuff. But one thing when I was preparing for this conversation is when you think about that show, yes, it's Ted Lasso, but actually the most dynamic characters on that show were Rebecca

Grace Pettis: 00:22:28

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jason English (Host): 00:22:30

I thought, I thought they were

Grace Pettis: 00:22:31

they

Jason English (Host): 00:22:32

extraordinary examples of,

Grace Pettis: 00:22:34

great female

Jason English (Host): 00:22:35

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Grace Pettis: 00:22:37

acting.

Jason English (Host): 00:22:37

Yeah. And you know, just the fact that like Rebecca inherited the, or not inherited the club, but got it through a divorce and she, she had her own agenda, but she was able to use how strong she was as a person and as a leader, but could also tap into the feminism to really, which isn't a bad thing, right? Like the, the delicate feminism, to be a strong person doesn't have to be, you need to be an asshole all the

Grace Pettis: 00:23:02

that you can be soft and empathetic and community minded and that that isn't a weakness.

Jason English (Host): 00:23:07

exactly. She was able to kind of use both to better herself and sort of recognize, okay, she's sabotaging Ted. That's not great. But then she recognizes what the impact she has and I don't know how that all sort of transformed. I thought it was a great example.

Grace Pettis: 00:23:24

Yeah, it's cool. It's, it's interesting that we've decided that these characteristics of being assertive is like male and being nurturing is female. And, and I just think it's, it's, it does such a discredit to so many like nurturing men that I know, so many single dads, and it does such a disservice to like so many strong, assertive, powerful women who, It's that thing, like, if you're a girl, a little girl in school, and you raise your hand too much, or you talk too much, which I did,

Jason English (Host): 00:23:48

you talk too much.

Grace Pettis: 00:23:49

um, you know, you get this bossy label, or this know it all, so we get those messages so early, and if you're a boy, and you, you know, care about animals, or, or smaller children, or you cry easily, then you're, then there's something wrong with you,

Jason English (Host): 00:24:01

Right.

Grace Pettis: 00:24:04

it's, what a shame, that we put ourselves into these boxes in that way and don't just let ourselves be who we are.

Jason English (Host): 00:24:10

You've talked a lot about the music industry being, obviously male dominated and stuff. And I think like on your website, you talk about, here in the U S women make up something like 22 percent of chart topping artists, 2 percent of the producers credited are on those charts and just about 12 percent of the songwriters, less than 1 percent of chart. Topping songs are written without men

Grace Pettis: 00:24:31

men. Less

Jason English (Host): 00:24:32

less than one percent.

Grace Pettis: 00:24:33

Yeah, yeah

Jason English (Host): 00:24:34

is crazy

Grace Pettis: 00:24:35

Like Tracy Chapman in Fast Car that was just, cut and was this big country

Jason English (Host): 00:24:38

Yeah, Luke Combs, yeah,

Grace Pettis: 00:24:40

right? Which is so cool Years after the fact but she is I believe the first woman of color To have a hit country song like as the writer, and I think as this as the singer too it's just yeah I it is it's really interesting because we sort of just we just treat it like we're just fish in water where you don't even see it, you know? And, for every other industry, think about doctors. There didn't used to be women in, lab coats either, but there are now. And nobody, would say, Oh, I don't want this brain surgeon, because she's a woman, if she's, the best brain surgeon, you know what I mean? So, it, the fact that we're less than 2 percent of producers is just,

Jason English (Host): 00:25:15

is just,

Grace Pettis: 00:25:16

criminal. I know many, so many amazing women producers. We're graduating at 50%.

Jason English (Host): 00:25:20

percent

Grace Pettis: 00:25:22

From the music schools. So when sound engineers, mixing, mastering, like producers, all of those people behind the soundboard, we're graduating at the same rate as men.

Jason English (Host): 00:25:33

it's a lot

Grace Pettis: 00:25:34

But we're not getting hired. We're not getting the jobs. And I think that that's that's a big problem.

Jason English (Host): 00:25:38

The little decisions each day. Yeah, it's the

Grace Pettis: 00:25:40

Yeah, it's the little decisions you do, and it's also just like, I don't think about it as like, oh, I'm team woman and not team man. No, I'm team human race. If you're talking about the human race, and women make up more than 50 percent of our population in America, and we're less than 1 percent of the songs are written by women, we are just not hearing this huge part of our own humanity. And art is supposed to reflect who we are as humans. If there's no songs about, I don't know, having a miscarriage or aging as a woman or what it's like when your kid leaves the nest if we don't have any songs about this, then the female experience is just completely erased, is definitely erased for women of color. So I just think it's a, I think it's a mission statement to get behind in general to just try to help listen to the stories that, that aren't being told, that aren't allowed to be heard. I think that that's a really important thing we can do as humans.

Jason English (Host): 00:26:32

Does the, success of Taylor Swift give you hope

Grace Pettis: 00:26:35

Oh yeah, absolutely. And Beyonce, like huge. And, you know, the Barbie movie. There's a lot of pink, the pink dollar they said this year was pretty strong. I think it's worth remembering that since forever, fan bases have been a lot of teenage girls. You think about the Beatles, who's in the crowd, right? So we actually are the, we are more powerful. We don't necessarily need to be empowered. We just need to remember that we have power.

Jason English (Host): 00:26:56

Well, to wrap up, you talked about working woman. Are you working on a new album in 2024? What's your plan look like

Grace Pettis: 00:27:04

got a, a new record that is in the can, produced by Mary Bragg, who produced my last record. We're really proud of it. It's a really different record than Working Woman. Working Woman was this kind of anthemic, girl power, you know? I wouldn't say girl power, but it was a rock record. It was a rock band. Big, loud, anthemic record. Um, very sure of itself, I guess I would say. And this one is, is coming on the heels of a, long separation and divorce and, COVID and a lot of, personal catastrophic loss. The kind that, made one of my friends say after it sort of all went down, like, no offense, but this is my worst case scenario what just happened to you. So that kind of thing. It's coming on the heels of that. So I got real quiet for a while. And I wrote a lot of songs that I sent to my therapist before I, decided to record, um, and in some ways it's definitely a divorce record, but I think it's a record specifically for, um, I like to say there's, there's the two meetings. So there's the first meeting is, it's like the secret club and there's 12 steps and you work the program and those of you listening who know what I'm talking about know what I'm talking about. And there's various substances that can qualify you to be a member. Um, but the meeting is pretty much the same no matter which one it is. And then there's the second meeting and the second meeting is for all the people that love the people in the first meeting. And that one also has 12 steps, and that one, there's also different ones for different types of problems, but it's all kind of the same shit, right? And if you've attended either one of those, this record is for you, but especially, it's for the people in the second meeting, because I think there's a lot of, art out there that reflects the hero's journey of recovery, which is really important. And I'm glad that it exists and there should be more of it. But again, just talking about the stories that are told and the stories that aren't. There's a lot of people on the sidelines of that journey of recovery. And a lot of people are hurt and damaged and thrown away along the way. And then there's kind of not a way to fix it, tell their you know? And it's hard for those people to tell their stories because it's so taboo and it's so stigmatized. To be the loved one of someone who has, recovered or been in recovery. You have a lot of complex emotion. You have a lot of anger. There's a lot of sadness. There's a lot of, uh, and it needs to be okay for us to tell our story as well. It needs to be okay for us to, because the reason there is a meeting for us is so that we can look around the table and say, Okay, I'm not alone, and I'm not crazy, you know?

Jason English (Host): 00:29:39

to it. Thank you for the conversation. Can you, can you play a couple of songs for

Grace Pettis: 00:29:42

Sure thing.

Jason English (Host): 00:29:43

right. Thanks,

Grace Pettis: 00:29:44

Thanks so much.

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A Chat with Grace Pettis