Gary Nichols' Journey Through Addiction and Redemption
In this compelling episode of 'Curious Goldfish,' host Jason English engages in a deep conversation with musician Gary Nichols, who candidly shares his harrowing journey through severe drug addiction, despite reaching career highs like a Grammy win with his band, the Steeldrivers. Nichols recounts hitting rock bottom multiple times, his struggles with heroin, meth, and fentanyl, and the life-changing moment he decided to surrender and seek recovery, partly inspired by a movie he watched in jail. The episode also explores Nichols' musical career, his replacement of Chris Stapleton in the Steeldrivers, the therapeutic nature of his songwriting process during and after addiction, and his poignant reflection on personal relationships and fatherhood. Nichols' story is a testament to the power of resilience, the possibility of renewal, and the unending pursuit of redemption through music and self-reflection.
00:00 The Depths of Addiction: Gary's Story
01:06 Introducing Curious Goldfish: A Musical Journey
01:45 Navigating Life's Dark Forests: Insights and Inspirations
02:44 Gary Nichols: From Grammy Glory to Gritty Survival
06:16 Muscle Shoals: The Heartbeat of American Music
15:14 The Fall and Rise of a Musician: Gary's Path to Redemption
29:12 A Glimmer of Hope: Finding the Way Out of Darkness
32:36 A Life-Changing Moment in Jail
33:18 The Impact of a Movie on a Dark Path
34:18 A Sudden Shift: From Despair to Hope
34:52 Courtroom Surprise: A Second Chance
35:43 The Struggle with Sobriety and Self-Reflection
36:28 Finding Redemption Through Music
42:23 The Journey of Songwriting: From Darkness to Light
47:17 Navigating Love, Life, and Music Post-Recovery
50:23 Reflections on Heartbreak and Moving Forward
01:02:00 Curiosity and Future Aspirations
00:00:06
Gary Nichols: So I always tell people,
it's like, Oh, you know, Gary hit
00:00:09
rock bottom every time I hit rock
bottom, I had dynamite in my pocket.
00:00:14
You know, there's always another
bottom, I think, until you're
00:00:16
gone.
00:00:17
I came home in April of 2021
after eight months in treatment.
00:00:23
I locked myself in my room for three
days because I was scared to leave.
00:00:26
I didn't go to a meeting, didn't talk with
anyone, just tried to white knuckle it.
00:00:31
And the first place I went was
to get a pack of cigarettes.
00:00:34
Three days later and the first person
I saw was a dude I used to get high
00:00:39
with and as soon as he asked me I
said, yes, I was on a bender for a
00:00:43
few days I went from meth to heroin
to fentanyl within 30 minutes of
00:00:47
each other and Three days later.
00:00:50
I'm dead overdosed again in a hospital
If there is a place called hell
00:00:56
and a place called heaven, I truly
believe that I was on my way to hell.
00:01:12
Jason English (Host): Welcome to
curious goldfish, a podcast community
00:01:15
where music and curiosity come together
through interesting conversations
00:01:19
with the music makers of our world.
00:01:21
I'm your host, Jason English.
00:01:23
You can find curious goldfish and all the
major podcast and social media platforms.
00:01:27
And of course, we have all of
our content on our website.
00:01:30
Curious goldfish.
00:01:32
com.
00:01:45
We all at one point or another
in our lives experience setback,
00:01:49
challenge, loss, grief, or struggle.
00:01:52
These periods are sometimes referred
to as valleys or deserts where you just
00:01:56
can't seem to find water in the way up
to the mountain top seems impossible.
00:02:02
Ted Lasso, the main character in
the television series, Ted Lasso,
00:02:06
is a fictional soccer coach.
00:02:08
Demonstrating empathetic leadership
during an extended winless streak,
00:02:12
Coach Lasso compared these seasons
of struggle to a dark forest.
00:02:16
Listen, I don't care what our record
is, but I hear the chatter, people
00:02:19
saying there's something wrong with us.
00:02:20
Not the way I see it.
00:02:22
Okay?
00:02:22
Now, these next few
months might be tricky.
00:02:24
But that's just because we're
going through our dark forest.
00:02:26
Fairy tales do not start, nor
do they end, in the dark forest.
00:02:30
That son of a gun always shows up
smack dab in the middle of a story.
00:02:33
But it will all work out.
00:02:35
Now, it may not work out how you think
it will, or how you hope it does,
00:02:39
but believe me, it will all work out.
00:02:44
Jason English (Host): Few people
have experienced a forest as dark
00:02:46
as what musician Gary Nichols has.
00:02:49
Even after Gary found himself
on top of a mountain when he and
00:02:53
his band, the steel drivers won a
Grammy for their bluegrass album.
00:02:56
The muscle shoals recordings seven
years ago in my conversation with him
00:03:01
for the podcast, Gary talks about how
his dark forest kept getting darker and
00:03:05
darker as a result of severe addiction
to heroin and other lethal drugs.
00:03:11
Imagine being approached by a
successful band to replace Chris
00:03:15
Stapleton as his lead singer.
00:03:18
Imagine winning a Grammy with that
band on your second album after it was
00:03:22
recorded in and named after your hometown
of legendary Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
00:03:29
Imagine being on the verge of financial
freedom and fame only to lose it all
00:03:33
while destroying nearly all of the
meaningful relationships around you.
00:03:37
Almost dying and serving
time in prison to boot.
00:03:42
That was Gary Nichols Dark Forest.
00:03:46
But as Ted Lasso asserts,
fairy tales don't begin nor
00:03:49
do they end in a dark forest.
00:03:52
For Gary, the shimmer of light through
the branches came through watching, in
00:03:56
a jail cell of all places, a remake of a
classic music film starring Bradley Cooper
00:04:01
and Lady Gaga called A Star Is Born.
00:04:05
You might have seen it
00:04:08
Tell me something, boy.
00:04:16
Aren't you tired trying to fill that void?
00:04:25
Or do you need more?
00:04:32
Ain't it hard keeping it so hardcore?
00:04:37
Is that me?
00:04:40
That's you.
00:04:42
You just wrote that now?
00:04:44
Yeah.
00:04:46
That's pretty good.
00:04:48
Jason English (Host): Lady Gaga
sings about keeping it hardcore.
00:04:52
And that about sums up Gary Nichols
journey through the dark forest.
00:04:55
But thanks to a viewing of A Star is
Born while in jail, and thanks to an
00:04:59
incredible support system at Ivy Manor
at the Shoals, an all inclusive recording
00:05:04
studio in Sheffield, Alabama, Gary
is making his way out of the forest.
00:05:10
On a sunbathed spring day.
00:05:12
Gary talks about this journey
in incredible intimate detail.
00:05:16
He talks about his hometown and
talks about his plans to release
00:05:19
new music later this year.
00:05:21
He also sings two new songs.
00:05:23
First, one of hope and inspiration
called learning how to walk again.
00:05:28
A brilliant analogy to him starting
over with baby steps on his
00:05:31
road to recovery from addiction.
00:05:33
The second song is absolutely incredible.
00:05:36
It's called the devil's blood.
00:05:38
It's a step by step analysis of
shooting up and the lessons learned
00:05:42
that people of all ages and backgrounds
should heed with every note and lyric.
00:05:47
Gary might be the most talented
musician I've ever spent time
00:05:50
with and it's still incredibly
sad he almost threw it all away.
00:05:55
I can only pray that blue skies
are ahead for him and his family,
00:05:58
and the world is ready to welcome
him back for his new chapter.
00:06:03
You might say he is a star reborn.
00:06:07
Here's Gary Nichols of
Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
00:06:10
Let's dive in.
00:06:12
Hey, Gary.
00:06:13
So nice to meet you.
00:06:14
Gary Nichols: Hey, Jay.
00:06:14
It's good to meet you as well.
00:06:15
Jason English (Host):
appreciate, appreciate your time.
00:06:16
Um, over here at Ivy Manor, outside of
Ivy Manor here in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
00:06:23
It's a beautiful day.
00:06:24
Spring.
00:06:25
Gary Nichols: Gorgeous.
00:06:25
Perfect day, actually.
00:06:27
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:06:27
You're from here.
00:06:29
Gary Nichols: Born and raised, um, born
just about a mile and a half down the
00:06:33
road at Helen Keller Hospital and spent
most of my life in Florence, which is
00:06:38
part of the Quad Cities that make up the
area that everyone calls Muscle Shoals
00:06:44
Jason English (Host): So Muscle
Shoals is famous now for a lot of
00:06:47
the music stuff, but I didn't realize
Helen Keller was, was from here.
00:06:51
Gary Nichols: yeah Helen Keller, W.C.
00:06:52
Handy, Sam Phillips who was, you know,
00:06:59
Jason English (Host): Memphis.
00:07:00
Gary Nichols: Memphis discovered Elvis
and Johnny Cash and Jerry Lee and others.
00:07:04
Um, yeah, this town's kind of,
it's got a lot, these towns
00:07:09
have a lot going for them.
00:07:10
But, uh, and a lot of that,
is, has to do with music.
00:07:13
Jason English (Host): So can you,
uh, can you settle the argument
00:07:16
or the debate around the origin
of the name once and for all?
00:07:22
Gary Nichols: for all?
00:07:22
I can't settle anything, but I'll
tell you what, I'll tell you what
00:07:25
I've, what I've, what I've heard.
00:07:27
The first one I heard, believe it or not,
was, um, um, if you look at, if you're
00:07:33
looking at a map and you see the Tennessee
River and the way it's shaped here in
00:07:37
the Lauderdale County area and how it
makes a, a, a, a turn toward the north,
00:07:42
uh, northwest, kind of looks like a flex.
00:07:46
Right there in that bend of the river
looks like an arm making a muscle.
00:07:50
Jason English (Host): Got it.
00:07:50
Yep.
00:07:51
Gary Nichols: But I'm from Alabama
00:07:53
Jason English (Host): and
00:07:54
Gary Nichols: I know that there were
people, diving for mussels back in
00:07:58
the day and somebody just misspelled
00:07:59
it.
00:08:00
Jason English (Host):
somebody just misspelled
00:08:01
Gary Nichols: I'm pretty
sure that's what happened.
00:08:03
that's what happened.
00:08:05
I mean, you know.
00:08:06
Probably one of my, one of my
ancestors, but that's okay.
00:08:09
Jason English (Host): The Nichols
family runs deep in Alabama, right?
00:08:11
For that.
00:08:12
Gary Nichols: that we
are responsible for that.
00:08:14
The Nichols family does run deep
and I do think that we should take
00:08:16
credit for misspelling, uh, Muscle
00:08:19
misspelling.
00:08:21
but all jokes aside, the way I've always
viewed it was my first, um, my first
00:08:27
idea of Muscle Shoals with the, the, the.
00:08:30
the
00:08:30
bend in the river and and then the the
um the natives calling this this area
00:08:36
the singing river and then i think
that we do kind of put a little bit
00:08:40
of muscle into the music little little
soul it's um it's a different vibe so
00:08:48
I
00:08:48
think muscle shoals to me just stands
for just strong music with a lot of soul
00:08:53
Jason English (Host): How early in
your life did you realize the, uh,
00:08:57
the music component of the area?
00:08:59
I mean, because I think you said
your mom at one point, Before you
00:09:04
were one gave you a ukulele, right?
00:09:06
As a gift.
00:09:07
And, uh, you're in a band at six.
00:09:09
So, but obviously music was part of, it
was that part of your family heritage.
00:09:13
And how early did you know that,
you know, muscle shoals was, that
00:09:16
was kind of in the, in the DNA here.
00:09:18
Gary Nichols: Well, it was probably
a long time before I realized the
00:09:23
weight it carried and what it meant.
00:09:25
Um, I just knew that I grew up around
people that were playing and singing,
00:09:28
playing music and singing songs.
00:09:30
My uncle being one of them, um, and he
lived with us, when I was really young.
00:09:36
and he was singing all the
old Muscle Shoals music,
00:09:39
from the Walt Aldridge songs.
00:09:41
to, Otis Redding.
00:09:42
And then hit one of his best
friends was Travis Womack, um, who
00:09:45
was doing a lot of sessions here,
you know, transplant from Memphis.
00:09:49
so I just kind of grew up listening
to it and sitting in at a young age,
00:09:53
playing in bands, as a, as a child.
00:09:56
And then, I don't think it was till I
was probably 18 or 19 years old when,
00:10:02
I really realized how impactful that
these men and women I'd spent most of
00:10:07
my life uh, had been in the music Um,
and then I was 19 years old and I was a
00:10:13
cocky guy and I just thought, you know,
it just kind of, it just kind of, Just
00:10:18
like, Oh yeah, well, I'm one of them.
00:10:19
You know what I mean?
00:10:20
And that just kind of became my mentality.
00:10:22
And I just just sunk my teeth into that.
00:10:25
probably in my thirties up until now,
when I really have the reverence and
00:10:30
the respect for it and really, uh,
00:10:33
extreme
00:10:33
amount of gratitude for being
able to grow up with those people.
00:10:36
But, um, Yeah, it's, it's,
it's pretty wild to, to be
00:10:39
born and raised in this stuff.
00:10:41
Jason English (Host):
I met your son earlier.
00:10:44
He's young, do you think he gets it?.
00:10:45
I
00:10:47
Gary Nichols: It's a good question.
00:10:48
I think so.
00:10:50
I don't know though.
00:10:50
It's hard to say because at his
age, I mean, again, it was just,
00:10:55
I'd been conditioned for this
and okay, this is what you do and
00:10:58
this I didn't know anything else.
00:11:01
I had no, not enough separation
from it to, to, to have the respect.
00:11:06
He probably has more respect
for it than I did because he
00:11:09
just does overall, you know?
00:11:11
Um, but yeah, you know, he
grew up with it so close.
00:11:15
I mean, he was in the car seat behind me
singing and listening to all the new songs
00:11:18
and all the stuff that was coming out.
00:11:20
And, um, so he picked up on
it a lot quicker than I did.
00:11:24
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:11:24
I mean it what an opportunity for him
to, to grow up in with you, you know, as
00:11:29
a, as a, as a father and in this area.
00:11:32
And, uh, I think he's an intern
here at the, at the studio, right.
00:11:35
So just the by osmosis.
00:11:37
And I, he's in a band, right?
00:11:39
He's
00:11:39
Gary Nichols: He's a monster.
00:11:41
He's a great guitarist.
00:11:43
I mean, I look up to him
so much as a songwriter.
00:11:47
Uh, he sings, he's got the it thing
on stage, whatever that is, he got it.
00:11:52
Uh, and he's yeah, he interns here,
I mean he's got a band that he books
00:11:57
He's a whole little entrepreneur, And
on the dean's list at the college.
00:12:02
I was not.
00:12:03
Jason English (Host): on that's
all right, back to Muscle a lot of
00:12:08
people obviously have watched the
documentary, about the studios and stuff.
00:12:14
And I remember in that they make
reference to, you know, sort of the,
00:12:20
the mystique and the energy of the
river and the dirt, having this sort
00:12:24
of power and, uh, and, and presence,
uh, that comes through in the music.
00:12:31
what is it to you, uh, having grown
up here and being born here and
00:12:35
what, what, what is it, why do people
flock here to, to make records?
00:12:39
It's kind of weird, right?
00:12:40
Cause it, you know, there's a
lot of rivers in the country,
00:12:42
Gary Nichols: Yeah.
00:12:44
know, So,
00:12:44
Jason English (Host): what is it?
00:12:46
Gary Nichols: I don't know.
00:12:46
So, Either some, either they, either
Rick Hall and, and Jerry Wexler and
00:12:53
the folks got really, really, really
lucky and that law of attraction
00:12:59
brought everyone else in, or billions
of years ago when this thing took off,
00:13:08
Jason English (Host): Right.
00:13:09
Gary Nichols: a bunch of stuff
stuck together and landed in Muscle
00:13:11
Shoals and it got stuck in the soil
and the dirt, the spirit of music
00:13:16
and the spirit of, uh, Honesty and,
vulnerability, landed right here in
00:13:24
the river and then we drink from it.
00:13:26
I mean, maybe that's it.
00:13:27
I don't know.
00:13:27
That's kind of frou
frou sounding, I guess.
00:13:29
But, um, for me, what it seems like
00:13:32
is
00:13:34
David Hood, Jimmy Johnson, Roger Hawkins,
and Barry Beckett, and Rick Hall, and Sam
00:13:39
Phillips, and Jerry Wexler, and others
00:13:43
started something pretty magical.
00:13:45
And they were so unselfish with it.
00:13:47
They continued to give it
to us, the next generation.
00:13:51
And we kept it going,
we kept spreading it.
00:13:53
In some towns, everybody wants
to keep it to themselves.
00:13:57
Stay out of my sandbox.
00:13:58
This is my sandbox.
00:14:01
And down here, we share it and
give it to the next generation.
00:14:05
I also think that's attractive.
00:14:06
I think that brings people to town
because we really just want to create art.
00:14:10
create You know?
00:14:11
Um,
00:14:13
I love that.
00:14:14
Answer your question.
00:14:14
Jason English (Host): no it's
great, have you lived in a lot
00:14:15
of other places or mostly here??
00:14:17
Uh, mostly here.
00:14:19
Gary Nichols: Uh, mostly here.
00:14:20
I mean, I've traveled so much.
00:14:21
I mean, I'm I am back and forth
between here and Nashville as much,
00:14:25
and, and I used to tell people
I'd never moved because I knew all
00:14:28
the back roads and all the cops.
00:14:29
roads.
00:14:29
and I still, even after I got to know
the cops, very, the police officers very
00:14:33
well in this town, I still chose to stay
here because it's just a great community.
00:14:37
People, people love each other.
00:14:38
It's a great place to raise a family.
00:14:40
the industry's pretty pretty
happening here with songwriting
00:14:43
and, and record production and, and,
00:14:45
Yeah, it's just, it's a great place.
00:14:46
I suggest if you're, if you're looking
for a home, by the way, and you're
00:14:50
in the music industry and you feel
like, you know, this town to this town
00:14:53
to this town is just too hard to get
into it, be seen or be recognized.
00:14:56
If you've got it, bring it to town.
00:14:57
We want to hear it.
00:14:58
Jason English (Host): down and run it.
00:14:59
Yeah, that's good.
00:15:00
Uh, so what, describe your, uh,
00:15:03
How you got involved with Ivy,
Ivy Manor and what's your, what's
00:15:07
your role in the, in the group?
00:15:08
Cause it's a, it's kind of a
diverse team of people, right?
00:15:11
Gary Nichols: Well, the role changes.
00:15:13
I guess I'll start with how I got here.
00:15:14
And this is a little
bit of a story that may
00:15:17
lead into another story.
00:15:19
so, you know, I was with, I had a
long career, started playing music
00:15:24
at, at, you know, five or six years
old, professionally, you know,
00:15:27
playing for money and whatnot.
00:15:30
Um, that led me to, uh, To a whole
other bunch of cool things, including a
00:15:34
record deal with Universal Records, in
Nashville in the early part of 2003 6.
00:15:41
left that label and came back to
Muscle Shoals writing songs and
00:15:46
producing records and I got a phone
call, That a band called the Steel
00:15:49
Drivers was looking for a singer.
00:15:51
I didn't know much about the band, but
once I heard that Chris Stapleton had
00:15:54
been the former lead singer and I had
written with Chris and had an immense
00:15:58
amount of respect for him, uh, asked
Mike Henderson to send me the record.
00:16:02
Long story short, I'm in
that band for a while.
00:16:05
And in 2017, my whole world comes
apart after winning a Grammy, by
00:16:09
the way, with the Steel Drivers.
00:16:11
I was in the throes of opiate addiction.
00:16:14
I was playing doctor.
00:16:16
I was in and out of rehab, in and out
of jail, and from 2017 until 2021.
00:16:20
I didn't do anything except
stay high, stay in jail, stay
00:16:25
in a hospital, overdose, all the
things that go along with that.
00:16:30
So when I get out of jail for the
last time on June the 2nd of 2020,
00:16:35
one with
00:16:36
a debit card from the Lauderdale
County Detention Center with what
00:16:40
money I had left, which was 2.
00:16:44
Which was not even enough to swipe
the damn card and an eviction notice.
00:16:50
And
00:16:50
a marriage that was completely
in shambles, by the way.
00:16:53
So I get out, and I'm just
trying at this point not to die.
00:16:58
Right?
00:16:58
I'm like, I just don't want to die.
00:17:00
And if I stay here, I'm either going
to die, or I'm going to beat up
00:17:04
somebody really bad or something.
00:17:06
Because our relationship
had completely changed.
00:17:08
We're still married, but she's
got something else going on.
00:17:11
I'm, I'm complete addict.
00:17:14
So I leave her, I leave that apartment
and 2022, 2021, excuse me, I sleep in my
00:17:22
car for a little while, not getting high.
00:17:25
Um, and I don't know while I was, while
I was trying to get over that situation,
00:17:33
which was my, my wife with another man,
00:17:36
I decided to go what I don't know if
we can say that on this, but I think
00:17:41
some of the young kids call it a ho
00:17:43
Jason English (Host): a hoe face.
00:17:44
Gary Nichols: And I was kind
of just in this, this, um,
00:17:49
mode where
00:17:50
I was trying to pick my ego up and
anything that shined or shimmered and
00:17:54
smiled, you know, I would entertain.
00:17:58
And I met this really sweet girl,
um, who ended up bringing me over
00:18:03
to Ivy Manor and, She was here with
her boyfriend, by the way, so we
00:18:08
weren't here together, but she brought
me over here, and I met Michael,
00:18:12
Jason English (Host): met
00:18:13
Gary Nichols: and I started hanging out
here, and, um, it was really bizarre.
00:18:19
Uh, Michael knew I'd been to jail
and, and didn't, didn't shy away from
00:18:23
altercations if needed to be, and he
had a, a guest in the, in the, um,
00:18:28
the cottage house that he wanted out.
00:18:30
So he called me one Sunday because
he wasn't here and said hey, I
00:18:33
need you to go put this this guy
out of my house He will not leave
00:18:37
Jason English (Host): of my house.
00:18:38
So I
00:18:38
Gary Nichols: So I came out he
probably called me in for a hit
00:18:40
Jason English (Host): for a hit.
00:18:41
So
00:18:42
Gary Nichols: I came in and politely
asked the gentleman to leave and he did
00:18:45
there was no no altercation It was it
went very well Couple of weeks later.
00:18:52
I was living here A month after
that, I started making my record
00:18:56
here and I came back to life.
00:18:58
The early days of my life back off the,
off the streets, you know, uh, were
00:19:04
started here at Ivy Manor and I, I was
able to, to repair a lot of relationships,
00:19:08
get a lot of the things back that I lost,
uh, or, or pawned or sold or whatever.
00:19:12
And, and, uh, that's kind of
the long way around how I got
00:19:16
here, but that's how I got here.
00:19:21
Jason English (Host): to
the steel drivers bit, I
00:19:22
think in the reports that, you know, I've
tried to, tried to review online in terms
00:19:27
of, you know, news articles and stuff.
00:19:30
They said that you left that band in
order to kind of fix yourself, you know,
00:19:34
but it doesn't sound like you were fixed,
you know, or, you know what I'm saying?
00:19:38
Like I
00:19:38
Gary Nichols: would have to read the
report and see when the timing was.
00:19:42
So here, so if you wanted to go
into that for a moment, um, April of
00:19:50
2017, now this
00:19:52
is after we won the
00:19:54
Jason English (Host): You won the Grammy
00:19:55
Gary Nichols: the Grammy
in February of 2016.
00:19:57
Um,
00:19:59
And I was, I was pretty dependent upon
the pills at that point, but it was
00:20:06
pretty much just pills at the Grammys,
maybe some Fentanyl at the time.
00:20:13
Um, Fentanyl patches.
00:20:15
I wasn't, I wasn't playing doctor.
00:20:16
I wasn't administering it
to myself other than orally.
00:20:20
2017, um, I go to rehab the
first time and the second time.
00:20:26
And then after I got out of rehab
the second time, which is when
00:20:30
they said I was going away to fix
00:20:32
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:20:32
Yeah.
00:20:33
Gary Nichols: Adam
Wakefield, I think stepped
00:20:35
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:20:35
That's that was probably what
was they were referring to.
00:20:38
Gary Nichols: And that was the truth.
00:20:39
The problem is I was going to fix
myself because someone said I needed to.
00:20:44
I didn't think I had a drug problem.
00:20:46
You know,
00:20:47
And looking back, I didn't
have a drug problem.
00:20:50
I had a really messed up thinking problem,
but, um, I didn't think I had a problem.
00:20:55
I still had the job, the cars, the career.
00:20:57
Fuck, we just, pardon my
French, we just won a Grammy.
00:20:59
What do you, and I was so high on
fentanyl when we made that record.
00:21:03
I thought I was just okay, cool.
00:21:05
It's just, so
00:21:07
I go to
00:21:07
rehab the second time and when I get out,
I get arrested for some paraphernalia that
00:21:12
had been in my car before I went to rehab.
00:21:14
Didn't even realize it was still
in there, but it was, I got
00:21:17
But
00:21:19
That
00:21:19
started a whole bunch of mess.
00:21:20
Jason English (Host): mess.
00:21:21
Yeah.
00:21:22
Gary Nichols: Um, so
that was June of 2017.
00:21:26
After the first arrest, um, July
6th, I decided and I made this
00:21:33
decision to start administering.
00:21:38
Heroin and or fentanyl.
00:21:40
Excuse me.
00:21:41
It was going to be heroin, not fentanyl
because I was doing the fentanyl patches.
00:21:44
And if you know anything about fentanyl,
it's 50 times more potent than heroin.
00:21:47
So if I just do heroin, I can work my way
back because I'm already doing fentanyl.
00:21:52
So now let me just do heroin.
00:21:53
Then I'll go from heroin back to pills
and then I'll work the pills back down.
00:21:56
I was going to wean myself off.
00:21:58
That was absolutely my train of thought.
00:22:01
That was what I was
00:22:01
thinking.
00:22:01
what I
00:22:03
But when
00:22:04
I did heroin the first couple of
times, and I just snorted it or smoked
00:22:07
it, it didn't have the same effect.
00:22:09
A, it was weaker than fentanyl,
and B, it just, it wasn't doing it.
00:22:13
So I decided,
00:22:16
I learned at rehab, my first,
my second trip to rehab, that
00:22:19
I've been wasting my dope.
00:22:21
So they told me how to do it.
00:22:23
So I did.
00:22:24
Six weeks later, it was all over.
00:22:26
Jason English (Host): did.
00:22:26
Six
00:22:27
Gary Nichols: So,
00:22:28
Jason English (Host): Who told
you you were doing it wrong?.
00:22:30
Gary Nichols: 17 year old kid at
Cumberland Heights in Nashville,
00:22:33
Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.
00:22:37
mean, how ironic is that?
00:22:39
Gary Nichols: Yeah.
00:22:39
Well, and it was, it made sense.
00:22:44
It's made total sense.
00:22:46
I mean, it would, anyway, I
heard what I wanted to hear.
00:22:50
wanted
00:22:52
And so I go home and I start doing
that on July the 6th of 2017.
00:22:57
Why
00:22:58
Jason English (Host): 2017.
00:22:58
Why do you remember that date?
00:23:00
Gary Nichols: July the I remember
dates, a lot of dates, but
00:23:03
July 6th of 2007, excuse me,
00:23:08
July 6th of 2007,
00:23:10
the connection,
00:23:11
the Grand Ole Opry for the
00:23:12
Jason English (Host): you all the dates.
00:23:14
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:14
I
00:23:16
number.
00:23:16
Wow.
00:23:17
I know
00:23:17
Gary Nichols: I know my kindergarten
girlfriend's phone number.
00:23:21
Like I remember dates and numbers
it's so strange, but that was the
00:23:24
day I started shooting and then,
um, two weeks later I was on the
00:23:28
road in Pittsburgh with the band.
00:23:31
They didn't know this yet.
00:23:32
All they had known is I'd
gone to rehab and I came back.
00:23:35
Tammy looks at me in the, in the, I
mean dead ass in the face one morning
00:23:38
and says, Gee Ray, I don't know what
you're doing, but you are playing and
00:23:43
Jason English (Host): Oh, she's,
00:23:44
Gary Nichols: And she had no
00:23:45
Jason English (Host): yeah, she
was just trying to encourage
00:23:47
Gary Nichols: But I'm just doubled
00:23:48
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:23:48
Yeah.
00:23:48
She didn't know it.
00:23:49
Yeah.
00:23:50
Gary Nichols: so I did that.
00:23:51
That was, um, that was
like the 20th of July.
00:23:55
August the 18th, I was done with the band.
00:23:58
Here's the sad thing about that too.
00:24:00
If I'd have made it till December of that
year, the house would have been paid off,
00:24:04
the credit cards would have been paid off,
my car, my wife's car, the daughter's car,
00:24:08
the other daughter's car, college set up.
00:24:09
I was about to make a
lot of money that year.
00:24:12
I was homeless January 1st.
00:24:14
Jason English (Host): so what happened
between July and August, why'd
00:24:17
you leave, did they kicK you out?.
00:24:22
Gary Nichols: so one of the band
members went through my stuff and
00:24:28
liability to and
00:24:33
why did you leave?
00:24:45
But that trip, I remember that trip very
well, too, because I drove once I got to
00:24:48
Nashville, I drove straight from Nashville
to Talladega, Alabama, because this was
00:24:51
only like six weeks after injecting.
00:24:53
And so I decided I was going to
go to detox because if I didn't
00:24:57
get ahold of this right now, I
knew what was about to happen.
00:25:00
but I'd been to enough 12 step
meetings to know, where I was headed.
00:25:05
But when I got to that rehab,
00:25:08
that detox in Talladega,
00:25:11
was,
00:25:11
the manager from the band called my
wife and said, he's out of the band.
00:25:17
Don't call us ever again.
00:25:18
Jason English (Host): my gosh.
00:25:19
Gary Nichols: And
00:25:20
so what did I do?
00:25:21
Any addict is going to
tell you what I did.
00:25:23
I got my ass in my truck, I drove back
to Florence, and I doubled down again.
00:25:27
And at that point I was
just on a mission to die.
00:25:29
wasn't to
00:25:30
Um, I wasn't trying to kill myself, but
I wasn't trying to hang around either.
00:25:34
My only mission every day was
to get up, find it, use more and
00:25:37
more and more and more and more,
and just numb it until it was
00:25:41
Jason English (Host):
was it for you to find?
00:25:43
Gary Nichols: I had no idea
how easy it was to find.
00:25:45
but it was three blocks from my house.
00:25:48
And so once I lost the house and the cars,
actually, I stayed in the house for a
00:25:53
minute, you know, without power and stuff
because it was close to the dope man.
00:25:56
I'll just walk,
00:25:58
get a bicycle, ride a bicycle.
00:26:00
It's pretty, pretty
00:26:02
bicycle.
00:26:02
Jason English (Host): Wow.
00:26:02
You doubled down there, was there
00:26:04
Was was there
00:26:08
no ounce of regret?
00:26:13
Gary Nichols: Yeah, which was
what fueled the double down.
00:26:17
So for me, I don't know what it's
like for other people, but I learned
00:26:22
after going through some, some
paperwork on myself that resentments.
00:26:31
is really, really bad for me.
00:26:33
And I hold a huge resentments toward
myself every time I do something wrong,
00:26:38
which becomes guilt, shame, remorse.
00:26:40
And so when I don't know what to do
with that, I don't have an outlet
00:26:43
for it or I haven't learned, uh,
00:26:47
you know how to process
it or cope with it.
00:26:49
point in my life, I go
to what's consistent,
00:26:52
which
00:26:53
was, this is my substance of
00:26:55
choice.
00:26:56
Um, and that's, yeah, I just.
00:26:59
I regretted it.
00:27:00
I felt terrible about it.
00:27:01
I also knew, you have to imagine
this man, I was a father of four,
00:27:09
Jason English (Host): Right.
00:27:10
Gary Nichols: um, a wife, we had
pets, I coached, the baseball,
00:27:16
the softball, the football.
00:27:18
I opened up a recording studio at the
local high school and was teaching there.
00:27:22
Um, I wasn't doing that
while I was injecting.
00:27:24
I left that job thankfully before
I knew before it got crazy.
00:27:28
But I mean, I was father of the
year and band mate of the year.
00:27:34
So I thought
00:27:35
yeah,
00:27:36
like, and then it just, it took off.
00:27:38
fell apart.
00:27:38
And once I saw that, I just ruined
all these people's lives and I
00:27:42
couldn't correct it right there.
00:27:43
I didn't see any way out.
00:27:45
I just
00:27:46
decided to ride down with the ship
00:27:48
when out outlaw.
00:27:49
Just roll with
00:27:50
Jason English (Host): in the
middle of that, did you, was it a
00:27:53
conscious decision to double down?
00:27:55
Like, did you know that you were
doing that or was it just a, sort of
00:27:58
a flight or fight, response, And did
you know at the time that, like, you're
00:28:02
burning everything around you, around
you down or not, not until later?
00:28:06
Gary Nichols: Yeah, so
there was this weird thing.
00:28:08
No, it wasn't like, okay,
they, I did not say this.
00:28:12
The steel drivers fired me.
00:28:13
So I'm going to go
destroy everything more.
00:28:16
What happened was the
steel drivers fired me.
00:28:19
So fuck
00:28:21
so fuck
00:28:22
I don't want to be here now.
00:28:25
I
00:28:25
just went home and then my wife
left again because we weren't
00:28:30
living together at this point.
00:28:31
We were still kind of together,
Then I was just there by myself
00:28:35
and I went to what was comfortable
00:28:37
Um.
00:28:38
and I just, that's where I stayed
because I didn't have anybody.
00:28:41
I couldn't take care of myself, so
I couldn't take care of the kids.
00:28:44
Thankfully they were there
with, they were with her mom and
00:28:46
stepfather, their mom and stepfather.
00:28:49
Morgan took her kids
and went to Birmingham.
00:28:51
So I'm just here by myself in the shoals,
hiding out from people who cared about
00:28:57
me and, uh, staying in a dope house.
00:29:02
Jason English (Host): So you, you
mentioned the fall, July, August,
00:29:05
and then by January 1st, she
said, Well, you said by December,
00:29:07
everything would have been paid off.
00:29:08
Then by January, you're
basically had lost everything.
00:29:11
Right.
00:29:12
So that is, uh, that's gotta
be the dark forest for you.
00:29:17
Right.
00:29:17
So like, you know, I, so this,
this podcast, I know you haven't
00:29:20
watched the show, but it's inspired
by this show called Ted Lasso.
00:29:22
And one of the episodes, he, he,
he coaches a soccer team and you
00:29:26
know, they're on a losing streak.
00:29:28
And he basically is saying, he tells the
team in the locker room, fairy tales don't
00:29:32
start, nor do they end in the dark forest.
00:29:36
Right.
00:29:37
So we're, he's basically, we're
in our dark, dark forest and he's
00:29:40
trying to give them hope, right.
00:29:41
To see the blue skies and the
sunlight in between the branches that
00:29:45
had to have been your dark forest.
00:29:46
Right.
00:29:48
Gary Nichols: I don't know.
00:29:48
Jason English (Host): I mean, you
know, like, and I, and I guess my
00:29:50
question is what was the, what was
the shimmer of light that you saw
00:29:56
after that, that got you on the, on
the, on the path back to, you know,
00:30:04
Gary Nichols: So I always tell people,
I truly believe it's like, Oh, you know,
00:30:08
Gary hit rock bottom every time I hit
rock bottom, I had dynamite in my pocket.
00:30:15
You know, there's always another
bottom, I think, until you're
00:30:17
gone.
00:30:17
you're gone.
00:30:18
So
00:30:20
What happened
00:30:21
trips
00:30:22
for me was after several trips to
rehab and detox and overdoses and
00:30:27
jail, I'm now by the way looking
at at prison time for escape.
00:30:32
I have an escape charge at
Lauderdale County Detention Center.
00:30:35
Um, none of the consequences, it just
didn't seem like it could get dark enough.
00:30:43
I came home in April of 2021
after eight months in treatment.
00:30:50
I locked myself in my room for three
days because I was scared to leave.
00:30:53
I didn't go to a meeting, didn't talk with
anyone, just tried to white knuckle it.
00:30:57
And the first place I went was
to get a pack of cigarettes.
00:31:01
Three days later and the first person
I saw was a dude I used to get high
00:31:05
with and as soon as he asked me I
said, yes, I was on a bender for a
00:31:10
few days I went from meth to heroin
to fentanyl within 30 minutes of
00:31:14
each other and Three days later.
00:31:17
I'm dead overdosed again in a hospital
00:31:22
This should be another dark forest moment.
00:31:24
If there is a place called hell
and a place called heaven, I truly
00:31:27
believe that I was on my way to hell.
00:31:29
I woke up in the hospital,
they said with no pulse
00:31:32
and all I knew, all I knew was I was
walking down a dark tunnel, somebody was
00:31:36
guiding my hand, it was hot, it was chaos,
I could hear it, I could smell it and
00:31:40
I woke up That wasn't the dark forest.
00:31:45
I went home, I flushed the dope that
day, but I kept using Until they picked
00:31:49
me up and until I went to jail again.
00:31:51
So here was what it was for me.
00:31:53
The moment, after all the consequences,
seeing my mama cry, my kids cry.
00:31:58
Knowing, like I wanted to
want to quit so bad, Jay.
00:32:05
I did not want to do the
stuff that I was doing.
00:32:07
I was not at all driving.
00:32:09
I was not in control.
00:32:10
It's a weird thing.
00:32:11
It's hard to explain.
00:32:12
I even look at people right now who are
in the same throes of that, and it's
00:32:15
hard to understand why they're doing what
they're doing, and you just don't know
00:32:19
unless you're in the middle of But I'm
laying in the Lauderdale County Detention
00:32:23
Center, certain I'm going to go to prison.
00:32:26
If I don't go to prison, I've already
decided I'm going to get a bag of fentanyl
00:32:29
and go get myself out of this place.
00:32:31
So no one has to deal
with my bullshit anymore.
00:32:34
And if I go to prison, I'll
do it and it'll be cheaper.
00:32:36
Because it's all over the prisons, right?
00:32:38
That was my mentality.
00:32:39
I wasn't going to be here anymore.
00:32:41
I was going to un alive myself as
quickly as I could get a needle in
00:32:44
Jason English (Host): elevator.
00:32:44
Oh my gosh.
00:32:48
Gary Nichols: I don't know, a few
weeks in the Lauderdale County Jail,
00:32:51
thinking about this every damn day.
00:32:54
My only thought is, what's for supper?
00:32:59
Who can I beat out of a game of spades?
00:33:01
And I'm going to get a needle in my
hand off myself when I leave this place.
00:33:04
That's how I lived.
00:33:07
was my motivation.
00:33:08
That's how I was doing my time.
00:33:10
And
00:33:11
I don't know if you've been
to jail, hopefully not.
00:33:13
But when you're in jail, sometimes
television is very important.
00:33:18
It
00:33:18
was movie night.
00:33:19
It was very important.
00:33:21
I'm in the cell with, um, a range
from murderers to drug traffickers
00:33:26
to Um, you know, tax evasion.
00:33:29
I mean, it's, it's, we're
in, I mean, you know, escape.
00:33:31
There's, there's, I mean,
maximum security, Lauderdale
00:33:33
County Detention Center.
00:33:36
And we were, everybody was
serious about watching this movie.
00:33:39
A star is born with Lady
Gaga and Bradley Cooper.
00:33:47
I'm, in jail.
00:33:48
Got to do the time.
00:33:50
So cot time.
00:33:51
That's what else am I going to do?
00:33:52
So I'm locked into this movie.
00:33:55
And I guess somewhere along the way, I
started seeing some parallels between
00:33:58
Bradley's character and myself.
00:34:01
And at the end of this movie, I
was so mad and so distraught at
00:34:06
this character in this movie.
00:34:11
I couldn't sit with it.
00:34:12
It had me so upset.
00:34:14
And then all the guys
are calling their girls.
00:34:16
And I don't have one to call at this time.
00:34:18
I go catch my rat, and I sit back, and I'm
leaned back, and I swear to you, I hear
00:34:23
in a voice, very much like I'm talking
to myself, Are you fucking kidding me?
00:34:27
That's how you're gonna leave this place.
00:34:29
You can have compassion for a character in
a movie, and you cannot see that as you.
00:34:33
Are you fucking kidding me?
00:34:34
And immediately I just went, Oh shit.
00:34:38
Wow.
00:34:38
I give up.
00:34:39
I surrender no more.
00:34:41
And I won one prayers.
00:34:42
Jay, if you want to send me
to prison, send me to prison.
00:34:45
If you want to set me on the
street, set me on the street.
00:34:48
I give up and I don't want to die anymore.
00:34:50
Imagine that.
00:34:52
Crazy thing is, I went to
court a few days later.
00:34:57
Now I was up, by this point
we've skipped some stuff.
00:34:59
I was on drug court.
00:35:00
I was on a serious um,
deterrent from prison.
00:35:03
They were trying to give me one last
chance from going to prison for escape.
00:35:09
Open plea.
00:35:10
Escape one carries 25 to
00:35:11
life.
00:35:12
Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.
00:35:13
Gary Nichols: had knocked it
down to escape three, but I'd
00:35:15
probably at least 15 years.
00:35:17
I'm expecting to go to prison
when they call me to court.
00:35:20
Jay, this is three days after I just
saw this movie, by the I get to court.
00:35:25
They call my name, Mr.
00:35:26
Nichols.
00:35:27
You're going home today.
00:35:29
You're on the banana peel program.
00:35:31
If you miss one meeting, if
you're a dollar short, any
00:35:35
mistake, you fail a drug test.
00:35:37
You're gone.
00:35:39
Yes, sir.
00:35:41
I don't know about you.
00:35:42
How
00:35:43
Jason English (Host): do you explain that?
00:35:44
Gary Nichols: I
00:35:44
don't know and how do you explain
that the first thought in my mind
00:35:48
was I want to get Thankfully this
time it was followed by no I don't.
00:35:55
Jason English (Host): Okay, good.
00:35:55
Gary Nichols: But everybody that
I've told my story to in the rooms
00:35:59
like of course that's the first
00:36:00
thing.
00:36:01
I mean I
00:36:01
just had a conversation with God
and said I surrender and I'm in it.
00:36:05
Jay I would have passed the lie
detector test when I said that.
00:36:08
But my first thought was the disease
says you want to get high bro.
00:36:12
I didn't.
00:36:12
I don't know how I
didn't get high that day.
00:36:15
Um,
00:36:17
But I called someone I got
to work pretty immediately.
00:36:21
Um, and uh, that was
my dark forest moment.
00:36:28
Jason English (Host): So
back to the A Star is Born.
00:36:29
So I just want to understand this.
00:36:31
So when you were watching it, you were
mad at the Bradley Cooper character.
00:36:35
And then, and then you also kind
of turned it like, you're mad at
00:36:38
actually having more compassion
for him than you do yourself?
00:36:41
Or did, did you not recognize that until
00:36:43
Gary Nichols: I didn't recognize it.
00:36:44
I'm just watching the
movie as a spectator.
00:36:46
And then I sit on my rack after
the movie while these guys
00:36:49
are calling their loved ones.
00:36:50
And then my subconscious, the source, God.
00:36:57
My guardian angel, whatever it was,
spoke to me from the two o'clock position
00:37:05
Jason English (Host): Right
00:37:05
Gary Nichols: right into my right ear.
00:37:07
And, uh, yeah, I didn't realize
it until after the movie.
00:37:10
Like I was so upset at
him and then realized
00:37:13
that's
00:37:14
me, man.
00:37:17
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:37:19
Well, I mean, again, the ironic thing is
you're in the jail watching this thing
00:37:22
and you've got the voice of the angel,
you know, like you, you've got the voice
00:37:26
of all voices and you know, and, and
I, I mean that just the juxtaposition
00:37:32
of, you know, watching an actor play
a music star with Lady Gaga and you're
00:37:39
in this jail I mean, how do you, how do
you, how do you explain the, the chances
00:37:42
of watching that movie in the jail?
00:37:44
You know,
00:37:45
Gary Nichols: I
00:37:45
believe in, in divine intervention.
00:37:48
So, I mean, I don't
believe in coincidence.
00:37:51
I don't believe, I just don't, I
don't, I don't know what it is.
00:37:54
I still have more questions
than I have answers.
00:37:57
Um, but I believe that
there's something out there.
00:38:00
Um, And I don't know why it picks
and chooses how it does or what, you
00:38:04
know, I'm not, I'm, I don't know.
00:38:06
I'm not qualified to say, but
I'm hopeful that I was left here
00:38:11
because I wouldn't waste my seat.
00:38:12
You know, I still struggle with things.
00:38:15
I'm a human.
00:38:16
I'm a, I'm a human, full
blooded North Alabama male that
00:38:21
struggles with things every day.
00:38:23
But I refuse to die with a needle in
my arm or a meth pipe in my mouth.
00:38:28
Just not gonna do
00:38:29
Jason English (Host): Yeah, good for you.
00:38:30
Gary Nichols: And I believe that if
my perspective can be so drastically
00:38:37
changed and shifted, and then
hopefully I can benefit someone else
00:38:43
that would have a shift in their
perspective and pay it forward.
00:38:47
I'm hoping this thing turns into like
the most beautiful, multi marketing,
00:38:51
multi-level marketing thing ever.
00:38:52
level seriously, you know, it's like
life is good when we get outta the way.
00:38:57
Jason English (Host): when out of the way.
00:39:01
Yeah, at one point, they
didn't know for a long time,
00:39:06
Gary Nichols: Yeah, at one point
00:39:08
they didn't know for a long time.
00:39:10
Um,
00:39:12
but they knew pretty quickly after and
they were, let's see, this is going
00:39:16
to be 15 and They knew, um, during
that time and it was pretty brutal.
00:39:25
I spent my son's 16th
birthday in his bedroom.
00:39:29
he wasn't there.
00:39:31
The house was already almost gone.
00:39:32
Like it was, they knew, they knew dad
was doing something really, really bad.
00:39:36
They knew exactly what it was.
00:39:38
Jason English (Host): Well, I mean, you
mentioned earlier that you struggle with
00:39:41
sort of self doubt and shame and remorse
and you kind of beat yourself up, right?
00:39:47
Gary Nichols: Did for sure.
00:39:48
Jason English (Host): And so
like now, like what, So you went
00:39:51
through the dark forest for sure.
00:39:54
How do you then keep yourself today
looking back and feeling like,
00:39:57
you know, shit about yourself?
00:39:59
Like what, what, what's changed in
your mindset and healing process
00:40:03
to, to prevent you from going
back to the, the old, the old way?
00:40:08
Gary Nichols: there's a lot.
00:40:10
I'll sum it up like this.
00:40:13
If Imagine that there's a beautiful white
house on the corner of your neighborhood,
00:40:20
the corner street in your neighborhood.
00:40:23
And you drive by it one
day and just shoot it up.
00:40:27
Just AK 47, cannons, muskets,
whatever, and set it on fire.
00:40:34
And you still live in this neighborhood.
00:40:37
I couldn't drive by that house
every day knowing that I did
00:40:41
that and I left it that way.
00:40:42
What keeps me okay today is
I'm trying to fix the house.
00:40:46
Cleaning up the wreckage of my past.
00:40:48
I don't pick up new resentments
for people very often.
00:40:51
And if I do, I try to get rid of it soon.
00:40:53
So I don't let it affect me.
00:40:54
And I do my damnedest not to cause harm
to myself or other people on a daily
00:40:58
My damned
00:40:59
And it seems to work.
00:41:00
Jason English (Host): to myself
or other people on daily basis.
00:41:03
And it seems to work.
00:41:06
It's dramatic and it's sad for
a lot of reasons, but it's,
00:41:09
it's, it's also inspiring.
00:41:10
I mean, you, you know, so I, I watched
you last night do some vocals here
00:41:14
on, uh, for Davin McCoy, who's,
you know, recording the album and
00:41:18
it was something to watch, man.
00:41:19
You know, just you, uh, how you
approach the whole process and
00:41:23
you were just doing the harmonies.
00:41:25
Um, but your voice, I mean,
it's, uh, it's something, man.
00:41:32
Gary Nichols: It's weathered.
00:41:33
Jason English (Host):
Well, no, but that's life.
00:41:34
You know, that, you know, it's the,
it's a reflection of a life that's,
00:41:38
you know, that's, that's been lived.
00:41:40
Gary Nichols: well, I'll say this
about, um, segue about, about Davin
00:41:45
and, and the project here at Ivy Manor.
00:41:47
First off, there's something
magical about this place.
00:41:49
It just pulls something out of me.
00:41:51
Like I can go sing on a corner or
go sing at a bar, go sing on stage.
00:41:55
And I don't know, I approach things
differently from here for sure.
00:41:57
It's, I respect it.
00:41:58
It's almost hallowed ground.
00:42:00
I also respect Davin and love his
writing and his voice and his melodies.
00:42:07
So it's, it's a challenge
because we sing differently.
00:42:10
So I also love that.
00:42:11
It's like, okay, now I have to do
something I'm not, I'm not accustomed to.
00:42:15
Um, but I loved, I loved that last night.
00:42:18
Those, those songs were great.
00:42:19
And his project he's making here
is going to be unbelievable.
00:42:21
Jason English (Host): be unbelievable.
00:42:22
Yeah, no, that's great.
00:42:23
Um, I want to go forward and then come
back, uh, even before the steel drivers.
00:42:29
But, uh, so how has your whole time in
the dark forest impacted the songwriting?
00:42:37
And, you know, I think you're, you're,
you're planning a new, a new album.
00:42:41
That's called, uh, learning to walk again,
00:42:43
Gary Nichols: learning how to walk
00:42:43
Jason English (Host): at
learning how to walk, walk again.
00:42:45
Obviously that's a, a signal to,
you know, getting yourself back
00:42:49
up and, and walking, like before.
00:42:53
how much of that experience
now sort of inspires your brain
00:42:58
and the songwriting thoughts?
00:43:01
Do you have, do you have a
lot of material now or is it,
00:43:04
you know, from, from that whole
00:43:05
Gary Nichols: So
00:43:06
during that experience, I had,
I was writing a lot of stuff
00:43:10
while I was in the throes of it.
00:43:12
So, most of the, all of the
record, with the exception of two
00:43:17
songs, were written while I was in
00:43:21
Jason English (Host): So the,
so the album that's going to be
00:43:22
released later this year, is it
going to be, it's going to be that
00:43:25
Gary Nichols: Yeah, so it's
like devil's blood, which is it
00:43:29
it talks about Devil's blood.
00:43:32
I'm I've lost the house and I'm
walking past I'm walking from my
00:43:35
mom and dad's house at this point
where I'm staying to the dope house
00:43:38
Which is now six miles away walk past
through my old neighborhood the house.
00:43:42
I just Traded for dope basically got
high walk back past that house went to
00:43:47
my mom and dad's house and wrote that
song Most of the songs were probably
00:43:51
written at my mom and dad's house You
Either, either in the back bedroom or
00:43:55
outside on the porch when I was up for
three or four days, but, um, but yeah,
00:44:00
and then I wrote, um, while I was in
jail, I started writing, learning how to
00:44:04
walk again, or it started writing itself.
00:44:06
I honestly didn't think I'd ever
play again, Jay, long before the
00:44:09
aha moment with the, with the movie.
00:44:11
And, uh, I didn't have any instruments.
00:44:14
I had one instrument.
00:44:15
Maybe I hadn't traded for dope.
00:44:17
Um, who's gonna, who's
gonna want to hire me?
00:44:22
Yeah.
00:44:22
You know what I mean?
00:44:23
Like that's the, that's
the, the, the, the mindset.
00:44:26
And so, but this song kind
of kept playing with me.
00:44:29
And, and when I got out and finally
made my way to Ivy Manor, I called a
00:44:34
friend of mine by the name of Jason,
Jason Patrick Matthews, wonderful
00:44:37
songwriter and, um, brought him to
Muscle Shoals and we wrote that one.
00:44:42
And that was the, uh, first song I'd
ever written with any kind of sobriety.
00:44:47
Um, since I was, you know, 14 years old.
00:44:52
So that was pretty cool.
00:44:53
Jason English (Host): That's incredible
00:44:54
Gary Nichols: that album.
00:44:55
So here's the thing with my music career.
00:44:57
Um, I'm in charge of it.
00:45:01
I need help and I'm working on that.
00:45:03
So, so here's what's going on.
00:45:05
I'm doing some really fun stuff with RBR
Entertainment, RBR Records, which is a
00:45:09
bluegrass record label out of Nashville.
00:45:11
I've had a couple of singles
out, one called This Time Around,
00:45:14
uh, which did really well.
00:45:15
I believe it was, it held a
number one position on one of the
00:45:18
bluegrass charts for a little while.
00:45:20
Another, um, and that song was written by
Billy Droz, Chris Myers, and Eddie Wilson.
00:45:25
And then, no, excuse me.
00:45:27
I'm so wrong.
00:45:28
The first single was called Fire in
the Dark, written by Eddie Wilson,
00:45:32
um, Chris Myers and Billy Droz.
00:45:34
Second single, I co wrote with
Terry Hurd and Billy Droz and it
00:45:37
was called This Time Around, which
was kind of, um, what this is about.
00:45:41
This time around, now that I've lived,
I'm gonna go out and try to share
00:45:44
a positive message of experience,
strength of hope, and save someone
00:45:47
who's struggling like I was, so maybe
they won't hit the same bottom I did.
00:45:51
Um, so I'm loving that, the
bluegrass thing, touring with
00:45:54
Billy Droz and Kentucky Blue Sun.
00:45:56
which is a lot of fun.
00:45:57
And then, before I even got back to
Bluegrass Radio, I already had this
00:46:02
record I was making at Ivy Manor
Music Group with Dan Hannan and
00:46:05
Michael Wright and Jared Przibic.
00:46:09
Um, and it's all the struggle songs.
00:46:11
It's more of the Americana format.
00:46:13
I mean, there's some drums and
steel guitar, you know, or electric
00:46:16
guitar, not steel guitar, but organ
and keys and that kind of stuff.
00:46:20
So it's a lot different
from the bluegrass thing.
00:46:24
Um, I'm hoping it will
be out in the fall of 24.
00:46:29
And
00:46:30
I will know more about that probably
by the time this podcast comes out.
00:46:34
So, um, but yeah, there's a lot going on.
00:46:36
There's bluegrass stuff, there's
Americana stuff, I'm songwriting.
00:46:39
Um, and yes, I think to answer
your question about, um,
00:46:45
How's, how's it's affected me.
00:46:47
I tend to find the younger people
that are coming to write with me
00:46:51
These days are wanting to write
00:46:54
that
00:46:54
love.
00:46:54
It's
00:46:55
The hard stuff which I love it's like
it's not all about you're hot getting
00:46:59
my truck Let me rock on and show you
how country I am It's uh, they want to
00:47:04
write something with some substance.
00:47:06
So I love that So But also still
write songs about heartbreak
00:47:11
and heartache because I've gone
through that as much as anything.
00:47:13
Whether it be because of
the substance or the girl.
00:47:16
Jason English (Host): Right, right.
00:47:17
Well, so that that's a good segue to go
back because I want to talk about like
00:47:21
the 2006 to 2010 time just real briefly
and then, uh, and then we can wrap it up.
00:47:28
So the I think one of your hits when you
were a single artist before the steel
00:47:32
drivers was, uh, I can't love you anymore.
00:47:35
And, uh,
00:47:37
to me, you know, in reading the
lyrics and listening to it, it's,
00:47:41
it's a tremendous heartbreak song
00:47:43
Gary Nichols: yeah, it was written
by James Otto and John rich
00:47:46
Jason English (Host): I guess
what was the genesis of that?
00:47:48
Um, and were you, did you record it?
00:47:53
Having gone through a
breakup, heartbreak, whatever.
00:47:58
Gary Nichols: was happily married
00:48:01
when I recorded it to my first wife
00:48:08
But I've gone through a lot of heartbreak
probably mostly self inflicted.
00:48:14
Like I fall in love, or I used to fall
in love really hard and really fast.
00:48:20
And when I heard that song, it
was more of a business move.
00:48:25
It sounded like a smash to me.
00:48:28
I love James Otto and John Rich.
00:48:30
We were doing some work together at the
time, writing some songs and whatnot.
00:48:34
And I just loved the song.
00:48:37
But it's that song has absolutely
haunted me since then much like
00:48:41
some of the songs that I write
00:48:43
they later come true and My problem is
I've loved very much a lot of wonderful
00:48:51
you know
00:48:51
I'm not saying a lot like trying to
be gross like Wilt Chamberlain, but
00:48:54
I've had a you know what I mean?
00:48:56
Like I I mean I love and so every time
I sing that song it kind of takes me to
00:49:02
a To a place and there's There's there's
one that I always sing it she just doesn't
00:49:14
Jason English (Host): of, uh,
sort of missed opportunities?
00:49:17
Gary Nichols: No, I think it was the
perfect opportunity I think sometimes I
00:49:21
feel like my lot in life may be to to To
receive and to release and to document it
00:49:32
Jason English (Host): it.
00:49:33
Okay.
00:49:33
Gary Nichols: like I'm okay
with Don't mind heartbreak
00:49:38
It gives me something that inspires me
00:49:41
It motivates me to do something different.
00:49:44
Um, I don't, I try not
to fall in love anymore.
00:49:47
You know, it's so far off
00:49:51
battling, but I'm doing okay.
00:49:54
But, um, but yeah, it's, uh,
00:49:58
I don't know.
00:49:58
Does that make any sense
at all to an earth?
00:50:00
What I would, I'm going to
call you an earth person, but
00:50:01
like to say, to say out loud.
00:50:05
I'm okay with experiencing
all the phases of
00:50:08
Jason English (Host): no, I think, yeah,
00:50:09
Gary Nichols: doc and documenting it for
00:50:11
Jason English (Host):
think that makes sense.
00:50:12
And
00:50:12
then each
00:50:13
Gary Nichols: then each new person
kind of gives you a new take and you
00:50:16
experience and you're older and you've
have a little different perspective on it.
00:50:21
I don't know.
00:50:21
I've never really said that out
loud, but that's kind of how I
00:50:23
Jason English (Host): well, so, you
know, I was married a long time and
00:50:26
the song resonated with me because
it's It talks about, you know,
00:50:33
leading, leaning into the pain.
00:50:35
I think it uses different words,
but, uh, and that's what I think,
00:50:38
you know, after a breakup or after a
relationship ends, it's one thing to
00:50:44
just try to forget it, but you feel
something and it's better to experience
00:50:50
it and to get through it, right?
00:50:52
Rather than compartmentalize it or
rather than, you know, just kind of
00:50:55
like, you know, brush it to the side.
00:50:58
Gary Nichols: Here's what
happens when you run from it.
00:51:00
And if you think of it in a, in the sense
of a storm like that, if you're running
00:51:06
from it, it's constantly chasing you.
00:51:09
If you hit it head on, that's why
I love sad songs make me smile.
00:51:12
I always say that.
00:51:13
When I'm going through
that, I want to hear that.
00:51:15
I want to write that.
00:51:17
I go right through it.
00:51:18
It's coming at me head on and I'm
going at it head on, just like you
00:51:20
said, leaning straight into it.
00:51:21
And then we pass.
00:51:22
And at some point toward the end
of the storm, it starts to be okay.
00:51:27
And, and yeah, definitely go through it.
00:51:30
If you're going through a heartbreak
right now, Just get on Spotify and
00:51:34
just find a heartbreak playlist
or just type in Gary Nichols.
00:51:38
You'll probably find some
songs and just get through it.
00:51:41
It'll be okay.
00:51:42
Jason English (Host): are the
lyrics and um, you know, it's a
00:51:45
great song, but it's a, it's, it's
called, I can't love you anymore.
00:51:49
So it's, how do I break it
to my heart that it's got,
00:51:52
that it's gotta get over you.
00:51:54
How do I learn to live apart
from the one I gave my life to?
00:51:58
Well, right here, right now,
let it turn me inside out.
00:52:01
So I can just move on.
00:52:03
So bring on the pain, let it kill
your memory, bring on the rain, let it
00:52:07
drown what, what's left of you and me.
00:52:12
That's pretty good, right?
00:52:14
Gary Nichols: It's pretty good, man.
00:52:15
And it's, um, I mean, when you say
that, you mean it, just bring it on.
00:52:20
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:52:20
Gary Nichols: Hit me with it.
00:52:21
I'm not running from it.
00:52:22
I know you're leaving.
00:52:23
I know it's over this
phase of our life is over.
00:52:26
Okay.
00:52:26
Let me process it.
00:52:28
Cause if you're like me and you don't
process it and you run from it and
00:52:31
then you start to find something else
to fill this void, then you're just
00:52:34
sitting there with the same problem and
you've got something else on top of it.
00:52:38
You know, you know, you, if you take a,
if you take it, if you take alcohol, if
00:52:44
you take alcohol away from an alcoholic.
00:52:47
A broken hearted man, you still
got a broken hearted so you still
00:52:52
gotta fix the Get through it.
00:52:56
Jason English (Host): the problem.
00:53:06
Gary Nichols: Sure.
00:53:07
Jason English (Host): Um, and I'm, I'm
not saying that I necessarily went through
00:53:09
a whole phase, but I was, uh, I was,
you know, I was married a long time.
00:53:15
I married basically the first
person I fell in love with.
00:53:18
And, uh, I was scared to death, right.
00:53:21
To go out.
00:53:21
And, but I wanted, I
wanted to meet new people.
00:53:26
And, um, and a lot of people were like,
Jason, like, why, why are you trying?
00:53:32
Like, why are you going on so
many first dates and why are
00:53:34
you leaning into this so much?
00:53:36
And it's like, I wanted to, I wanted
to have the experiences, right?
00:53:40
in my day job, I've been in sales a long
time, you know, selling like technology
00:53:44
services and in sales, you have to be
able to, uh, withstand and accept the no.
00:53:51
you know, because you get your heartbroken
all the time in sales, you know, , it's
00:53:56
Gary Nichols: so
00:53:57
Jason English (Host): So it's
00:53:57
like, uh, so my whole approach was
I'm gonna meet, you know, good pe
00:54:01
you know, try to meet good people and
just see where it goes and lean into
00:54:04
it knowing that it could get rough.
00:54:08
But I think that's life, right?
00:54:10
Yeah.
00:54:10
And it's like, uh, and people are like,
why are you being so v vulnerable and
00:54:13
why are you putting yourself out there?
00:54:16
What else would I, you know,
what else would I want to do?
00:54:19
You know, I want to, I'm, I'm almost 50.
00:54:21
I'll be 50, you know, probably by the
time this is recorded or, uh, published.
00:54:26
And, you know, my eyes open now to
like the fact that I've got half,
00:54:30
basically less than half my life left.
00:54:32
I'm going to go live it, you know?
00:54:35
Gary Nichols: Yeah.
00:54:35
That's kind of where I am too.
00:54:36
Like, well, you, My relationship situation
is, is, is touchy because I've been
00:54:41
married twice to two wonderful women
and I'm the common denominator, period.
00:54:51
So, now I'm the common denominator
after, like I've, all the
00:54:56
money I had went up my arm.
00:54:59
Right, so now I'm starting over.
00:55:01
I've done pretty well
in the past few years.
00:55:04
Got a house, got cars, doing
this sort of thing, making
00:55:07
amends, all that sort of stuff.
00:55:08
But like, A, I don't have, I don't
have my, my house in order, in order
00:55:13
to bring someone else and be able
to feel like my duty to provide for
00:55:17
or provide with in today's society,
whatever you want to call it.
00:55:21
I'm just not there yet.
00:55:23
Also, I was married
collectively for 20 years.
00:55:26
I'm the common denominator.
00:55:27
That's okay.
00:55:28
But as a whole number right now, I'm
just going to be very, very selective
00:55:33
about when I decide to do that.
00:55:35
Um,
00:55:36
Jason English (Host): yeah.
00:55:37
Gary Nichols: problem is, like you said,
we're, you know, we're getting, you
00:55:42
know, I've lived 16, 700 something days,
00:55:46
Jason English (Host): Right, right.
00:55:47
Gary Nichols: You know, I don't
know how many of them are left.
00:55:49
But I'm, again, I'm not just gonna
selfishly say, well, I don't wanna
00:55:52
die alone, so I'm gonna lock you down.
00:55:54
I'm just, when that time comes, it comes.
00:55:56
Jason English (Host): Well, it's
probably hard for you, too, as
00:55:57
like an incredible musician.
00:55:59
I mean, I'm sure you've got options.
00:56:02
You
00:56:02
Gary Nichols: well,
00:56:03
Jason English (Host): And you said
earlier, you're going to be selective.
00:56:05
But it, I'm sure, you know, I'm
sure that's, that's got to be tough.
00:56:09
Gary Nichols: Well, um, you
know, we all have options, right?
00:56:13
Here's what's really tough, um, is
when you have someone in your life.
00:56:18
That probably treats you better than
anyone's ever treated you and Loves you
00:56:23
so well, and you don't understand it
because you've not been in that type of
00:56:27
relationship And you're like me right now.
00:56:30
You don't want it
00:56:35
Jason English (Host): it's like, why not?
00:56:36
You know?
00:56:37
Gary Nichols: Yeah, I've got
there's a Love her to death.
00:56:41
She's a dear friend of mine I'm not
gonna call her name on here, but she
00:56:43
knows who she is and and I asked myself
You know daily what the hell am I doing?
00:56:50
But what I'm doing is sticking to
the plan that I said I was going to
00:56:53
do when I came out to the side and
just trying to stick to the mission.
00:56:56
And then I asked myself, well, could
she help me achieve the mission?
00:57:00
You know what I mean?
00:57:01
Like, she's, she's that kind
of, she's that kind of woman.
00:57:04
Jason English (Host): I mean?
00:57:06
Like, she's, she's that
kind of, that kind of woman.
00:57:23
Gary Nichols: Obviously,
mean, Chris Dable.
00:57:28
He's
00:57:29
Jason English (Host): I mean,
obviously he wasn't really, I mean,
00:57:30
he was always Chris Stapleton, but
he's, he's taken on a huge persona
00:57:33
now, but even at the time, you know,
00:57:51
Gary Nichols: I'd go
in the ring with Tyson
00:57:53
Jason English (Host): I can
00:57:54
Gary Nichols: or Muhammad Ali.
00:57:55
I'm just, you know what I mean?
00:57:56
I ain't scared of shit
00:57:58
Jason English (Host): I can see
00:57:58
Gary Nichols: and he's a monster.
00:58:00
So, but when I, when I got the
call, no, I was like, well, I'm
00:58:04
not, I don't want to be in a band.
00:58:06
Jason English (Host): want to be
00:58:07
Gary Nichols: a solo
artist, a bluegrass band?
00:58:10
Um, and then
00:58:11
Mike Henderson said, yeah.
00:58:12
He said, I said, well, who's the singer?
00:58:14
He said, Stapleton.
00:58:15
I said, oh, well send
me the record because.
00:58:18
Again, I love bluegrass, but
if you've heard me sing, you
00:58:20
don't think right off the bat.
00:58:22
Oh, that's a bluegrass
singer from East Kentucky
00:58:26
so
00:58:26
I was never never thought about being
in a bluegrass band, but when I heard
00:58:29
that first record good night man
00:58:34
Good corn liquor that
I was sold right then
00:58:38
so
00:58:39
Then I probably got excited Because
it was just fun stuff to play.
00:58:44
But when I joined the band,
it was just like me reverting
00:58:47
back to being the cover guy.
00:58:48
That's what I felt like.
00:58:50
Well, I've done the
cover band for a while.
00:58:51
I love all these songs though,
so I'll sing all these songs.
00:58:55
And then we got to making our
first record, Hammered Down.
00:58:59
That's the first time I felt pressure.
00:59:02
Only because, and it wasn't intentional,
but the people kept bringing up the
00:59:08
fact that they had been nominated For
a grammy for where rainbows never die.
00:59:13
I was like, oh shit You know Chris
is not yet really taken off just yet.
00:59:19
I think at this time he's still doing the
Johnson brothers But I still felt a little
00:59:24
bit of pressure at that point in time
00:59:29
By the time the muscle
shows recordings got here.
00:59:32
I don't felt anything and so I
00:59:37
in completely untapped, unhinged,
George Dickel, Fenton Hall,
00:59:42
Jason English (Host): else, probably
00:59:43
Gary Nichols: whatever else, probably
plenty of other things too, but,
00:59:46
um, and just wasn't scared at all
and just went and made the record.
00:59:52
And I'll, I'll say this because I don't
know that it gets said a lot, but, um,
00:59:58
you know, Jimmy Nutt and myself with
the band cut those tracks and then Jimmy
01:00:06
Nutt and I spent a lot of time on that
record, like producing that record.
01:00:10
think Jimmy should get, I don't know
if he's got production credit or not.
01:00:13
I think he just might've gotten
engineer credit, but Jimmy Nutt
01:00:17
and myself produced that record
with Jason doing two songs, Isbel.
01:00:22
And
01:00:22
um, it was just one of those things where
it was, I was left in my home studio with
01:00:28
a buzz just having fun, just having fun.
01:00:32
And it worked.
01:00:33
Jason English (Host): yeah.
01:00:34
Well, you may not have
recognized it at the time.
01:00:36
Cause you were probably numb and, you
know, in a different state of mind, but
01:00:41
how gratifying is it now to look back
saying that you won a Grammy recorded
01:00:47
here at the nuthouse in muscle Shoals
called the muscle Shoals recordings.
01:00:51
I mean, that's pretty cool, right?
01:00:53
Gary Nichols: Way cool.
01:00:54
Yeah, it's way cool, man.
01:00:55
Um, I don't think about it too often.
01:00:59
I think, I think sometimes I kind of, I
give myself a, uh, almost want to take
01:01:05
it away from myself sometimes because
I felt like I was, I didn't deserve it.
01:01:10
You know what I mean?
01:01:12
I have those days, but then when I live in
the program and I realize that we don't,
01:01:16
we don't have to regret our past nor wish
to close the door on it, then I'm really
01:01:19
grateful for it and I'm proud of it.
01:01:21
I'm, I'm never doing it for
the awards or the accolades.
01:01:24
I mean, I write music.
01:01:25
because it makes me feel and I want
to make other people feel something.
01:01:32
That's the only reason I do it.
01:01:34
And so the awards are nice, man.
01:01:36
They really are.
01:01:36
But,
01:01:38
uh,
01:01:38
so as it when, when someone comes up
to you and says, Hey man, you know, I'm
01:01:43
127 days
01:01:44
on needle in my arm and learning how to
walk again really helps man every day.
01:01:48
That's the, that's the reward, man.
01:01:52
Jason English (Host): and I
really appreciate your time.
01:01:54
So at this point in your
life, um, you know, what, what
01:01:56
are you most curious about?
01:02:00
Gary Nichols: Doja Cat.
01:02:04
Jason English (Host): Okay.
01:02:05
Gary Nichols: I'm so
01:02:06
Jason English (Host): You're
01:02:06
you're a cat person too.
01:02:07
Gary Nichols: am a cat person.
01:02:09
I'm just teasing.
01:02:10
I do have a, a, a, a, a
small crush on Doja Cat.
01:02:15
Um,
01:02:17
man, what am I most curious about?
01:02:23
I'm a curious cat.
01:02:24
I'm curious about a lot of things.
01:02:27
Um, most curious about right now whether
it's going to be, um, an asteroid,
01:02:36
a comet or the sun on April the 8th.
01:02:38
Jason English (Host): 1st.
01:02:39
I'm
01:02:39
Gary Nichols: been watching this stuff.
01:02:40
You see any of this stuff on TikTok?
01:02:41
Like, I'm curious.
01:02:42
Like, we, I don't know.
01:02:43
I'm not out there
watching what's happening.
01:02:45
I can't say for
01:02:46
Jason English (Host): sure.
01:02:46
Gary Nichols: There are options.
01:02:47
Haley's Comet or whatever it's called.
01:02:50
It's coming.
01:02:50
Like, so that's probably what I'm most
curious about right at this moment.
01:02:54
And Doja Cat.
01:02:55
Jason English (Host):
And there's your time.
01:02:56
Alright, well thanks so much Gary.
01:02:58
Um, would you play us some
01:03:00
Gary Nichols: Absolutely.
01:03:00
Let me tune my guitar.
01:03:01
Jason English (Host): All right.
01:03:02
Thanks, Gary.
01:11:09
Thanks so much for joining us for
another episode of Curious Goldfish.
01:11:13
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the podcast and on social media.
01:11:16
Also tell your music loving
friends about us too.
01:11:20
Until next time, stay curious.