Flying on Instruments: An Interview with Vanessa Peters
In this episode of Curious Goldfish, host Jason English interviews singer-songwriter, Vanessa Peters. They discuss her new album 'Flying on Instruments,' set to release in February 2024, and the unique challenges that today's music industry technology presents, such as AI bots trademark craziness. Vanessa expresses that even though a sustainable living in music might not be possible for her, she's finding freedom in carefully crafting her music. Vanessa ends the interview with two performances.
00:07 Introduction and Personal Reflections
00:58 Welcome to Curious Goldfish: The Podcast
02:07 The Paradox of Today's Aspiring Musician
02:48 Vanessa Peters: The Songwriter's Journey
06:10 The Songwriting Process and Challenges
08:32 The Personal and Emotional Aspects of Songwriting
21:04 The Business Side of Music and Challenges
26:44 Reflections on Music Career and Future Goals
29:50 Conclusion: The Meaning of Music
00:00:07
Vanessa Peters: I thought Mary Poppins
was like the coolest and I'm definitely
00:00:09
sort of a spoon full of sugar person
anyway, like just sort of a irritating
00:00:14
sunbeam sort of Pollyanna person.
00:00:16
And I was always, I think, I mean, that
is a very cool trick that she has this
00:00:20
bag where she can just pull out whatever
she needs, but, If you watch the movie
00:00:24
closely or read the book or whatnot,
you, you realize there's the sort of
00:00:27
sad undertone to her, to her life.
00:00:30
And also, she doesn't
have all the answers.
00:00:33
And I think, if you carry around the bag.
00:00:36
With too many of the memories and
the things that you're kind of
00:00:39
clinging to, I think that gets to
be sort of a psychic weight that
00:00:42
you're carrying without realizing it.
00:00:44
You don't even realize one day like
how heavy it has actually become
00:00:47
until finally you do set it down and
you're like, Whoa, what a relief.
00:01:04
Jason English (Host): Welcome to
Curious Goldfish, a podcast community
00:01:07
where music and curiosity come together
through interesting conversations
00:01:11
with the music makers of our world.
00:01:12
I'm your host, Jason English.
00:01:15
You can find Curious Goldfish and all the
major podcasts and social media platforms.
00:01:19
And of course we have all of our
content on our website, curiousgoldfish.
00:01:24
com.
00:01:37
You never really know what direction
some of these conversations
00:01:39
with singer songwriters and
musicians are going to take.
00:01:43
Sometimes they stay pretty high level
about music tastes and upcoming albums.
00:01:47
Other times they might take a
more personal turn talking about
00:01:51
personal struggles, challenges,
heartbreak, all the things that might
00:01:54
be the inspiration for great art.
00:01:56
We cover most all of those angles
in this episode with Vanessa Peters.
00:02:01
But I didn't expect to have topics
like AI bots and Malaysian troll
00:02:04
farms to be part of the conversation.
00:02:07
But that's the paradox for
today's aspiring musician.
00:02:10
Technology innovation has democratized
the industry to allow artists more
00:02:13
outlets to connect with their fans and
also enabling fans to have more direct
00:02:17
access to their favorite musicians.
00:02:20
But that same technology can also throw
unexpected obstacles into the mix,
00:02:24
which Vanessa tells us about today.
00:02:27
And she does tell us a lot about
her new album out in February 2024.
00:02:31
Ironically, it's called
flying on instruments.
00:02:34
We're grateful.
00:02:34
Vanessa spent time with us during the
38 songwriters festival in Florida,
00:02:38
and she performs two songs off that
new album accompanied by the sound
00:02:41
of surf and warmth of sun behind her.
00:02:44
Here's Vanessa Peters.
00:02:46
Let's dive in.
00:02:48
Vanessa, really appreciate your time.
00:02:49
Yes,
00:02:50
Vanessa Peters: Thank you for having me.
00:02:51
I'm excited to be here.
00:02:52
Jason English (Host): We're here in
Florida for the Songwriters Festival.
00:02:54
How many times have you been here?
00:02:56
This
00:02:57
Vanessa Peters: This is my fourth,
although it is my first time since 2020.
00:03:00
It's been a couple of years.
00:03:02
Jason English (Host): How's
the weekend gone so far?
00:03:03
Vanessa Peters: It's been nice.
00:03:04
It's been really nice, actually.
00:03:06
Jason English (Host): Do you approach
this more focused on the performances
00:03:09
that you have, or is it connecting with
other artists in between gigs and stuff?
00:03:16
Or what's your goal in
a weekend like this?
00:03:19
Vanessa Peters: That's a good question.
00:03:20
It is probably more gigs for me
although in the years past artists
00:03:25
get we get housing provided and so
sometimes we are in a shared house
00:03:29
with roomates and sometimes we are in
a hotel and years past I've always been
00:03:33
In a share house, and so
it was a great opportunity,
00:03:37
people I'd never met.
00:03:38
And I was also a little bit more centrally
located, so it was easier for me to
00:03:42
kind of venue hop and meet some people
00:03:44
This trip, it was a little
bit different cause I was.
00:03:47
It's in a gorgeous hotel, but
it's practically in Destin,
00:03:50
it's like way far down away.
00:03:52
And so I was a little bit more, isolated
in that regard, I guess, but it was also
00:03:56
nice because I was exhausted from travel.
00:03:58
And so it kind of, probably
better that I didn't try to
00:04:01
burn the candle at both ends.
00:04:02
Stay up late and go to all the showcases.
00:04:04
I probably needed to catch
up on my rest a little bit.
00:04:06
So it all worked out.
00:04:08
I did.
00:04:09
Last night I went, after my, my set
was over and drove across town over
00:04:12
to go see, uh, Toby Lightman and John
Oates play, which was really nice.
00:04:16
It was a really, really, uh, they
had a lot of simpatico feeling,
00:04:20
it was, it was a good set.
00:04:21
So yeah.
00:04:28
I know, it's pretty rad.
00:04:29
I actually got to open for him a couple
of years ago in Texas, uh, and in
00:04:33
Charlotte, North Carolina, randomly.
00:04:35
He's a very nice guy.
00:04:35
He's, yeah.
00:04:36
And it's, it's fun to see this other side
of him, the Americana side, or whatever.
00:04:41
But he did close with, she's gone
last night, which was pretty rad,
00:04:44
to be honest, just to hear it in
a very acoustic, stripped down,
00:04:47
stripped down way like that, you know.
00:04:48
It was cool,
00:04:49
Jason English (Host): So you mentioned
you're exhausted from travel.
00:04:51
Is that from the jet lag from Italy
or is that the 13 hour drive from
00:04:55
Vanessa Peters: right?
00:04:56
It's all the travels.
00:04:57
Yeah, no, I had this crazy day where
I like on Sunday, I took a train from
00:05:02
where I live down to Rome and then had a
very little sleep at the hotel and then
00:05:06
got up and flew from Rome to Dallas.
00:05:08
And then.
00:05:09
The next day I had to package
and sign like 85 vinyl for my pre
00:05:12
orders and stuff for the new record.
00:05:14
And then I had to go get like my
guitar serviced and go get a rental
00:05:17
car and, say hi to my parents.
00:05:19
And then the next day I drove, to 30A.
00:05:22
So it was kind of, it was a little bit
nuts, but I'm, I'm catching up on rest.
00:05:25
I'll get there
00:05:26
Jason English (Host):
Well, good, well good.
00:05:27
And do you live in Tuscany?
00:05:29
Vanessa Peters: I do.
00:05:29
Jason English (Host): Oh
my gosh, that's not Dallas.
00:05:32
Vanessa Peters: not Dallas, it's
true, and it's always so awkward
00:05:35
because it probably, I know that
people instantly think like, oh,
00:05:38
trust fund baby or I don't know, it's
just, you cannot say that you live
00:05:42
in Italy without people going, oh,
00:05:44
(laughter) rest
00:05:45
but it's not like that.
00:05:46
It's a much longer story that
involves like a lot of washing of
00:05:50
dishes and, slogging and bureaucracy
and and all sorts of things.
00:05:54
So listeners rest assured.
00:05:57
I didn't just waltz in on some
sort of golden visa or whatever.
00:06:00
can assure you
00:06:01
Jason English (Host): no judgement,
00:06:02
it's more fomo jealousy.
00:06:05
know I know
00:06:06
Vanessa Peters: it's amazing it's
a I'm not gonna lie it's beautiful.
00:06:10
Jason English (Host): And you're
probably tired from all the activity
00:06:12
around a song release on Friday.
00:06:16
The song's halfway through, right?
00:06:18
Your new album is out
February 23rd, right?
00:06:22
Are you excited?
00:06:23
Vanessa Peters: I am excited.
00:06:24
It's been a long time coming.
00:06:25
We started recording it in January
of 2022, and it had to be kind of
00:06:29
backburnered because of life things.
00:06:31
Like we decided to sell our house and
move across the world and various other
00:06:37
massive, upheavally things happened.
00:06:39
And so it just kind of got stuck
for a while, but finally, finally
00:06:42
it's coming out and I'm very glad.
00:06:44
Jason English (Host): So That's
exciting, the song your released
00:06:46
that's the first one one right?
00:06:49
And you have another one
coming out February 2nd, right?
00:06:52
Better.
00:06:53
Better?
00:06:54
What, why halfway through as the, you
know, the first, the first track?
00:06:57
Um,
00:06:58
Vanessa Peters: well for one
it's definitely the most polished
00:07:01
poppy radio, possibly
sounding song, I guess.
00:07:05
It's the first one that I
wrote of that batch of songs.
00:07:08
And to me, it sort of feels like,
00:07:11
from
00:07:12
like the mama bear of the songs.
00:07:14
Like it feels like the song from
which everything else came, I
00:07:17
suppose, you know, um, thematically.
00:07:20
I feel like it.
00:07:21
It is one of the ones that
ties the record together.
00:07:23
There are a few others that also are
sort of thematic tent poles, but they're
00:07:28
probably a little too, introspective
and slow for the modern world.
00:07:31
So this one at least has
a reasonable beat to it.
00:07:34
Jason English (Host): You know,chicken
or egg question I guess, does the
00:07:37
theme come first or does the theme
come from a collection of songs
00:07:41
and you're like ok, there you go
00:07:45
Vanessa Peters: It depends.
00:07:46
I've written some albums that I kind of
sat down to write them almost as concept
00:07:50
albums, you know, that were around.
00:07:52
Certain characters or things like that.
00:07:54
The last couple that I've
written have not been that way.
00:07:56
I've, I've just taken a batch of songs
into the studio and recorded them all
00:08:01
and then sifted through them to see
which ones played nicely together.
00:08:04
So halfway through was actually written,
uh, at the tail end of the Modern Age
00:08:08
session, but it was just too, it was
a little bit too country for, I'm not
00:08:12
even really a country artist at all.
00:08:14
And I wouldn't call this song
country per se, but it has a
00:08:17
little bit of country twang to it.
00:08:18
And it just would have stuck out
like a sore thumb on modern age.
00:08:21
So we.
00:08:21
We hacked it.
00:08:22
But we hacked it by patting it nicely on
the head and telling it, don't worry song.
00:08:27
We got a special place for
you on the next record.
00:08:30
Jason English (Host): Help is
on the way, yeah that's good.
00:08:32
In the song you mentioned Mary
Poppins, and I think you've, you've
00:08:35
talked about the symbolism of the
bag that she's carrying I guess.
00:08:38
Can you expand?
00:08:40
Vanessa Peters: Yeah.
00:08:40
I mean, so I, I loved
that movie growing up.
00:08:44
I love Julie Andrews.
00:08:45
She was one of my idols.
00:08:45
I thought Mary Poppins was like the
coolest and I'm definitely sort of
00:08:48
a spoon full of sugar person anyway,
like just sort of a irritating
00:08:53
sunbeam sort of Pollyanna person.
00:08:55
And I was always, I think, I mean, that
is a very cool trick that she has this
00:08:59
bag where she can just pull out whatever
she needs, you know, but, uh, If you
00:09:03
watch the movie closely or read the book
or whatnot, you, you realize there's the
00:09:07
sort of sad undertone to her, to her life.
00:09:10
And also, she doesn't
have all the answers.
00:09:13
She, she can pull out a lot of things from
the bag, but she can't pull out answers.
00:09:16
She can't pull out band aids to fix
everything from there, you know?
00:09:19
And, I'm one of those people that
try as definitely irritatingly
00:09:24
over, over prepared in all ways.
00:09:25
Like I always have too many bags
that I'm carrying full of post its
00:09:29
and pens and, and possible fix, fix
it things and, , as sort of a, it's
00:09:35
almost like a talisman of warding off
disaster, like I'm going to be prepared
00:09:40
so that there won't be any problems.
00:09:41
And that's just this weird psycho
control thing that I have to get past.
00:09:45
And I think, if you carry around the bag.
00:09:48
With too many of the memories and
the things that you're kind of
00:09:51
clinging to, I think that gets to
be sort of a psychic weight that
00:09:54
you're carrying without realizing it.
00:09:56
It's also one of those things where like
you have, you have this bag of emotions
00:10:00
or whatnot that you're carrying and you're
at, you add one thing at a time and it's
00:10:03
kind of the boiling frog phenomenon.
00:10:04
You don't even realize one day like
how heavy it has actually become
00:10:08
until finally you do set it down and
you're like, Whoa, what a relief.
00:10:12
So that's kind of that.
00:10:13
Second verse in a nutshell.
00:10:19
No, I think it was just kind of
around, in 2020, like every person
00:10:23
on the globe, with a frontal lobe,
they were contemplating mortality and,
00:10:27
what to do with the rest of your life.
00:10:30
If life was ever going to go on
normally again, and if it did,
00:10:35
where, where would you want to go?
00:10:36
What would you want to do?
00:10:38
And maybe how would you want
to be a different person?
00:10:41
What sort of things would you like
to shake off about your old self
00:10:44
and maybe move forward, you know,
shed your skin sort of thing.
00:10:47
So I think that's, that was, that
was sort of the kernel of the song
00:10:51
when I got started writing it.
00:10:52
I mean, I was just about to turn 40 and.
00:10:54
You know, your 40th birthday and
lockdown is not terribly exciting,
00:10:57
but I was lucky because I was, at a
recording session because at the time
00:11:01
Italy had had a very, uh, intense
lockdown in the spring of 2020.
00:11:05
So we didn't actually have any COVID
cases in, in the summer of 2020.
00:11:09
So while here in the States, everybody,
that was kind of when COVID really
00:11:12
started raging for the first time was
summer of 2020, but we, um, got to go
00:11:17
on like kind of amazing vacations in
the country where everything was empty
00:11:21
because there were no tourists, you
know, it was like, I saw this side of.
00:11:24
These beautiful places I'll,
that I'll never get to see again.
00:11:27
And we were, and we got to
go into the studio, um, at a
00:11:30
farmhouse to make this record.
00:11:32
And I was keenly aware of how, how lucky
I was to be able to do this at all.
00:11:37
While so many people like
couldn't see their loved ones.
00:11:39
And I was hanging out with my,
with my bandmates and making this
00:11:42
record and thinking like, man, this
is you never do know when it's your
00:11:46
last shot to do this sort thing.
00:11:47
So put everything into it
that you can, you know?
00:11:50
Jason English (Host): Yeah.
00:11:50
You mentioned earlier about, no
more clinging to the past and
00:11:54
letting things sort of fester.
00:11:56
I mean, that kind of goes back to, you
know, this whole idea of being a goldfish.
00:12:00
Yeah.
00:12:01
Did you watch Ted Lasso?
00:12:03
Yeah.
00:12:03
Like what, what did that, not
really the show, but like the whole
00:12:07
idea of, of that, the 10 second
memory and kind of moving on.
00:12:12
Did that resonate with you?
00:12:13
Vanessa Peters: Oh, yeah.
00:12:13
Oh, yeah.
00:12:14
We talked about that a little bit
earlier as well, but I mean, I think it's
00:12:16
funny that, that, that Ted talks about.
00:12:20
About the goldfish and how it's happy
because it has such a short memory.
00:12:24
And we're meant to believe that that
is what, what he, how he tries to live
00:12:27
his life and it may well be how, how
he tries to live his life, but we also
00:12:31
come to realize, you know, especially
going through the series, like how much
00:12:35
pain he is holding onto and is, is not
really even letting himself acknowledge.
00:12:39
And that's, again, he's sort of carrying
that bag full of stuff that he hasn't
00:12:42
figured out how to put down yet,
00:12:44
Jason English (Host): Yeah, I was going
to read, in setting this interview up.
00:12:46
I give you context of this podcast
and kind of what we're trying
00:12:49
to talk about and the idea of not
letting things go and weigh you down.
00:12:52
And you said in an email, though, I'm not
as good at it as Ted purports it to be
00:12:57
Vanessa Peters: It's Ted.
00:12:58
I
00:12:58
Jason English (Host):
though perhaps neither is
00:13:00
Vanessa Peters: yeah, you know, he's Mr.
00:13:02
Jason English (Host): that was great
because yeah, you know, he's Mr.
00:13:04
Positive.
00:13:05
He's the motivator.
00:13:06
He's the leader.
00:13:07
He seems like he's.
00:13:08
Vanessa Peters: hey, if this guy, if it
00:13:10
Jason English (Host):
and then it gets dark
00:13:12
Vanessa Peters: But, you
00:13:12
Jason English (Host): you're like, man,
if this guy, if it gets dark for this
00:13:15
Vanessa Peters: work through
00:13:15
Jason English (Host): He tries to work
through it, but yeah, I thought that was
00:13:17
a great point because, the episode
where the locker room is built on top
00:13:21
or yeah, built on top of, this, haunted
area and they have the whole ceremony
00:13:27
where they, they sort of like, you know,
00:13:29
area.
00:13:29
And they, purge the ghosts
it's like, we all have our
00:13:32
Vanessa Peters: where
00:13:33
Jason English (Host): right?
00:13:33
Even Ted, you know,
00:13:35
Vanessa Peters: yeah there are so many
insightful things in that series that
00:13:39
are just really great lessons to learn
00:13:42
learn.
00:13:42
And
00:13:43
he's,
00:13:43
a classic example, and I know
that I'm this way as well.
00:13:46
I mean, if I ever would just
take my own good advice, I'd
00:13:49
probably be, I'd probably be set.
00:13:51
You know what I mean?
00:13:52
Like, Ted is fantastic at motivating
his players and giving them advice
00:13:55
to live their lives, but he's not
always that good at taking his own
00:13:58
advice to live by it, you know?
00:14:00
And I think that that's one of the things
that I know I'm guilty of, for sure.
00:14:03
People come to me.
00:14:04
I'm a pretty good listener, and
I'm good at giving advice, and I'm
00:14:07
terrible at following my own, you know?
00:14:09
Jason English (Host): that's a good point.
00:14:11
So the other aspect obviously
is, curiosity, right?
00:14:13
I think in another interview you
said, if we're doing it right, then
00:14:16
life is a process of discovery and
we're all still learning, still trying
00:14:20
to figure out how to live our best
lives, at this stage in your career,
00:14:24
what are you most curious about?
00:14:26
Vanessa Peters: Hmm.
00:14:26
That's a very good question.
00:14:27
I guess I'm still curious about, how to,
00:14:30
How to make music without,
happy with without tying, I
00:14:35
always want to put myself in it.
00:14:37
I mean, it's, I can't imagine like not
pouring myself into songs, but I would
00:14:42
love to understand how to learn to put
myself in it and then detach myself from
00:14:47
it, like to set it out into the world,
but without tying any sort of, like
00:14:52
if an album does well, or if it's, if
it's poorly reviewed, not taking that
00:14:58
back on myself, you know what I mean?
00:14:59
Like I made this thing
and I'm happy with it.
00:15:01
And so that's all that matters.
00:15:03
Like just learning not to care what
other people think about stuff is I'm,
00:15:07
I'm very curious to know how other
people do it because I definitely
00:15:10
don't have any idea how to do it still.
00:15:13
I'm also curious just to like, just to
explore other ways of writing songs.
00:15:18
I've always kind of done it the same way.
00:15:20
And the guys I play with in my,
my band now are, they definitely
00:15:23
approach it differently than I do.
00:15:25
And I probably need to be better about.
00:15:27
Coming to them and saying, like,
let's write a song your way instead of
00:15:31
always being so demanding that it be.
00:15:33
Done my way,
00:15:34
Jason English (Host): So what,
what's the Vanessa Peters way?
00:15:36
I just tend to
00:15:37
Vanessa Peters: I mean, I just
tend to take my guitar and go whole
00:15:39
up in a room and work on lyrics.
00:15:42
Uh, usually, usually I work on the lyrics
first and then I ended up sort of noodling
00:15:45
around on the guitar until I find a melody
that fits the structure of the words.
00:15:48
It's, it's rare that I
write the music first.
00:15:51
And they're definitely
all music first people.
00:15:53
They all went to conservatory
and stuff in their.
00:15:56
You know, classically trained, and I
know that they approach it from a much
00:15:59
different mindset than I do, and we
started listening to a lot of jazz,
00:16:03
and Steely Dan was like our, uh, was
our soundtrack for 2020, and yeah, oh
00:16:09
man, we, we have listened to So, yeah.
00:16:11
If you look at my husband's Spotify,
or if you looked at like the, like his
00:16:15
Spotify unwrapped or whatever, it would
be like 99 percent of your listening
00:16:19
time was either Bill Evans or Steely Dan.
00:16:21
Um, it's pretty great, but those
are two artists that I, that I
00:16:25
never was interested in before.
00:16:27
And, um, but now I've sort of gained
a lot of that musical vocabulary with
00:16:32
just by osmosis, I sort of feel like.
00:16:34
So I think it would be sort of
interesting to start writing songs,
00:16:38
thinking how would Donald Fagen do this?
00:16:40
It would be a challenge for sure for me.
00:16:41
Jason English (Host): the new
album, I think you've said too that.
00:16:44
It's very personal and you're
not using a lot of metaphors,
00:16:48
Vanessa Peters: Mm hmm.
00:16:49
Jason English (Host): Was
that, that just happen
00:16:51
Vanessa Peters: yeah.
00:16:52
It just happened.
00:16:52
It's just the way these songs came about.
00:16:55
I mean, some, like I said earlier, some
of the records I've done that are more
00:16:58
like concept albums definitely were more,
I wrote a record a long time ago that
00:17:02
was based heavily in Greek mythology.
00:17:04
And so a lot of the, a lot of the songs
might've been drawn from my personal
00:17:08
experience, but they were framed as.
00:17:11
other characters like,
like Penelope and Odysseus.
00:17:14
And I had this whole backdrop
thing where I was trying to convey
00:17:17
a certain , je ne sais quoi, but,
00:17:20
Jason English (Host): There you go.
00:17:21
That's French.
00:17:21
You live in Italy.
00:17:22
But on this
00:17:23
Vanessa Peters: But on this
record, I wasn't doing that at all.
00:17:25
I wasn't trying I was just writing songs
that were just coming from the heart I
00:17:27
wasn't really trying to disguise them.
00:17:29
I wasn't trying to make it seem
like they weren't about me.
00:17:31
It was just like, yeah, if you know
me, even in passing, you can tell
00:17:35
that these songs are about my life.
00:17:37
Jason English (Host): When it comes
out, what are one or two tracks that
00:17:39
stick out to you that you're like,
Hey, you know, if you're gonna listen
00:17:41
to a couple of songs, get those.
00:17:43
Vanessa Peters: couple
00:17:43
Jason English (Host): Yeah, obviously the
first two that you're pre releasing, but.
00:17:46
Vanessa Peters: you're releasing.
00:17:47
Yeah.
00:17:47
I love "How Long" it's track seven.
00:17:49
It's where the title comes from,
from flying on, flying on instruments
00:17:52
is, is in the bridge of that song.
00:17:55
And that song is super personal.
00:17:56
It's definitely a song that
sort of wrestles with mortality.
00:17:59
And tough decisions, and it kind of
comes from, again, talking about Ted
00:18:03
and people that are, I've always sort
of consider myself an eternal optimist,
00:18:07
and even though I feel like, especially
the last couple of years, some days are
00:18:11
just a slog when I think about all that
is going wrong in the world constantly,
00:18:16
it just feels like the world is on fire.
00:18:19
But I, I still remain
optimistic about the future.
00:18:24
But I said to my husband one day
in passing, I said, I'm optimistic
00:18:27
about the future, but how long
is it going to take to get there?
00:18:29
Like, where is this mythical future?
00:18:31
When are we ever going to get to this
quote unquote better future, you know?
00:18:35
And so that's actually the, the
chorus of the songs is, and I'm
00:18:38
optimistic about the future, but
how long will it take to get there?
00:18:41
I'm not sure.
00:18:41
Jason English (Host): Is that an
analogy that if you're flying a
00:18:44
plane you can't see kinda where
you're going, you're just kind of
00:18:47
Vanessa Peters: yeah, that's where
Flying on Instruments comes from.
00:18:48
It's, you know, it's the idea
that you That you're basically,
00:18:53
the road ahead is dark and you
don't know what's ahead of you.
00:18:55
And you're, you're just trying
to take your best guess at
00:18:57
this point, to land safely.
00:18:59
And there are several songs, track three
is called Blind Curves and it has a very
00:19:03
similar theme about, you don't know what's
ahead and you're just, trying to wrestle
00:19:07
with the weight of expectations that
everybody else puts on you, but you're
00:19:10
also trying to set your own path forward.
00:19:12
And it's like, sometimes it's,
it's very hard to tow that line of.
00:19:15
Of being true to yourself, but also
not wanting to let other people down.
00:19:18
And it just, it's impossible
sometimes to not to feel like you're
00:19:22
just wandering through a dark wood.
00:19:24
You know,
00:19:24
Jason English (Host): Yeah,
00:19:25
Vanessa Peters: I, I keep, I keep
trying to, when I describe the record,
00:19:29
I'm like, it's kind of depressing.
00:19:30
And then my husband's
like, it's not depressing.
00:19:32
Don't tell people that it's introspective.
00:19:34
And he's right.
00:19:34
It's because at the end of the
day, it's when I describe it to
00:19:37
you like that, I'm like, God,
that does sound really depressing.
00:19:39
But, um, every song has its resolution at
the end where it's it is going to be fine.
00:19:44
Basically, you just got to keep putting
one foot in front of the other and it may
00:19:48
be dark for a long time, but eventually
you will get through the wood, eventually
00:19:52
you will come out the other side.
00:19:54
The song ends with a
record called Wasted Days.
00:19:56
And it ends with basically with a line
saying it's okay that there are bridges
00:19:59
that you burned as long as the lesson
that you learned is that as long as
00:20:04
there are lessons that you have learned,
then maybe they weren't wasted days.
00:20:08
It's this funny sort of like
almost electronic sounding
00:20:10
song because we recorded it
with Mellotrons and Bokophones.
00:20:14
We're like these weird little things
that you put on your iPhone that
00:20:16
make this like noise and it's sort
of strange and, uh, and haunting.
00:20:21
And I, and I really like how it, it
seems like it's going to be this very
00:20:24
dark, sad song, but it ends with this
idea that you know what, as long as
00:20:27
you learned something from it, whatever
it was, it wasn't a waste of your time.
00:20:31
Jason English (Host): That's amazing.
00:20:31
All right.
00:20:32
Vanessa Peters: That feels very Ted, too.
00:20:33
Jason English (Host): yes,
that's, that's, I love that.
00:20:35
Vanessa Peters: maybe I was
Ted Lasso in a past life.
00:20:36
Jason English (Host): I mean,
it sounds like it, I wish.
00:20:39
Yeah, that's, that's,
that's, that's really good.
00:20:40
So flying on instruments.
00:20:41
What, which album is
this in your portfolio?
00:20:45
Vanessa Peters: It's my 12th full length.
00:20:47
Jason English (Host): Wow.
00:20:48
Vanessa Peters: And, um,
I guess 14th overall.
00:20:49
Cause I have two EPS as well.
00:20:51
So
00:20:52
Jason English (Host):
Well, congratulations.
00:20:53
That's a, that's a good career.
00:20:54
Yeah, that's good.
00:20:55
I'm sure, and I'm sure not even
close to being finished, obviously.
00:20:59
Vanessa Peters: Hope not.
00:21:00
Jason English (Host): You've talked a
little bit in other interviews about
00:21:02
the business side of things and how
00:21:04
You wish you knew a few operating
procedures there wasn't a manual
00:21:09
for you to, learn the craft
and learn the business side.
00:21:12
But in those 12 albums, what do
you wish you would have known?
00:21:16
Vanessa Peters: Know, there
may have even been an operating
00:21:17
manual and I was probably just
too young and dumb to open it.
00:21:20
But, I started making music at a time when
00:21:23
There was this little golden age
right there at the end of the
00:21:26
nineties, early two thousands, when
the internet was exciting and wasn't
00:21:30
scary for artists when it actually
seemed like a lot of potential.
00:21:34
To be able to connect with your fans and
sell music directly without worrying about
00:21:38
piracy, because all that was so new and
everything was changing so rapidly, like
00:21:41
all of a sudden you had to have a website
and then you had to have a MySpace and
00:21:45
then now, you know, now you have to have
a SoundCloud and you have to have a.
00:21:47
So you're constantly having to
learn these new platforms and stuff.
00:21:50
And along the way, it's impossible for
there not to be like digital cruft, like
00:21:53
things that you didn't clean up properly.
00:21:55
I had no idea that I should even
consider trademarking my name.
00:22:00
Cause it never even occurred to me
that that would ever be an issue.
00:22:03
And it probably never would have
been if it wasn't for AI bots.
00:22:06
I was just reading this horrifying article
today that I will, I can forward you just
00:22:09
Jason English (Host): you.
00:22:09
Yeah.
00:22:10
Vanessa Peters: perusal,
but it's about this.
00:22:12
duo that released, pre released all
their stuff on SoundCloud just for
00:22:15
some friends to listen to and some bots
scraped it, changed all the titles and
00:22:20
re released it under their own name.
00:22:22
And so when they went to go release
it, all the distributors rejected
00:22:25
it because the digital fingerprints
now belonged to somebody else.
00:22:28
Crazy.
00:22:30
And it's just like, I mean, so that, that
stuff that like, obviously when I started
00:22:34
recording music in 2002, they're like,
nobody could have told us about that,
00:22:38
Jason English (Host): You
can't fathom that, yeah.
00:22:39
Vanessa Peters: would have been
really nice to have, I guess I've had
00:22:41
the forethought to know, , I should
trademark, trademark my artist's name.
00:22:45
I should, take great care with,
copyright and, with registering my
00:22:49
songs with, not only with BMI, but
00:22:52
With SoundExchange and all of these
different, collections, even now
00:22:55
when I start to think about all of
it, I'm like, I get the total heebie
00:22:59
jeebies because it's just a ton
of paperwork and there's so much,
00:23:01
Well, margin
00:23:02
for error.
00:23:03
And if you don't enter everything
exactly correctly about who the writer
00:23:06
is and who the composer is and who's
the publisher, whatever, then you
00:23:08
risk not getting anything at all.
00:23:10
And since there's no money in most of
what we do, it's like, like the only money
00:23:14
that might be out there is that money,
you know, and it sucks to think that
00:23:17
that's probably just sitting somewhere
in an account because maybe I didn't
00:23:21
enter the publisher name and the right.
00:23:23
Column on this massive spreadsheet that
they sent me to fill out, you know,
00:23:26
Jason English (Host): is
that your responsibility or
00:23:28
is that the record company?
00:23:29
Vanessa Peters: So I self released
all my records until recently.
00:23:32
only just begun releasing with a
record, a small record label out of
00:23:34
Dallas called Idol Records , in 2018,
I released my first record with them.
00:23:38
They do help a lot with that now, but I
have, so like I, I released a couple of
00:23:43
records as a band, my old band was called
Vanessa Petters & Ice Cream on Mondays
00:23:48
It's a long story having to do with Italy.
00:23:49
I had first, I had released
some records as Vanessa Peters.
00:23:52
And then in the interim, I released
three with Ice Cream on Mondays.
00:23:55
And then I went back to
just being Vanessa Peters.
00:23:58
This is a classic example of
things that can't be fixed.
00:24:02
Apparently, um, probably if I was
Tom Petty and Tom Petty and the
00:24:05
Heartbreakers, it could be fixed.
00:24:06
But I, Vanessa Peters
cannot fix this problem.
00:24:08
It's intractable.
00:24:09
Those two artists exist
separately, even though.
00:24:13
It's me, I wrote it, I own all the
copyrights, there's no record label in
00:24:16
the middle, there's no pushback from the
other band, there's nothing, there's no,
00:24:21
but I cannot combine them, what's funny
is, One of them, we wrote it with a plus,
00:24:25
like the plus sign, Vanessa Peters plus.
00:24:28
The other two, we wrote
it with an ampersand.
00:24:29
The one with the plus is
on my, all my profiles, my,
00:24:32
Spotify and Apple and whatever.
00:24:34
The other two, which I'm actually
extremely proud of and which
00:24:37
a lot of my early fans like
really love those two records.
00:24:40
Nobody knows they exist unless you
followed me back in like 2006 or
00:24:43
2007, because they're not on any.
00:24:46
Of the, they're on a page called
Vanessa Peters and Ice Cream on
00:24:49
Mondays that nobody knows exists
because I don't actively promote
00:24:52
that page because that band was,
you know, dissolved 15 years ago.
00:24:55
There's no reason for me to promote
it, but it's sad that it's out there
00:24:58
and I can't do jack shit about it.
00:25:00
And it's one of those things that's
really, it should be the easiest
00:25:03
thing in the world to prove.
00:25:04
Nope.
00:25:04
I own the copyright.
00:25:05
Can't do it.
00:25:06
Sorry.
00:25:07
And when you bring up things like
Tom Petty and Tom Petty and the
00:25:09
heartbreakers are on the same page and
they're like, well, you know, that's
00:25:12
grandfathered in blah, blah, whatever.
00:25:14
So things like that are just, they make
you want to beat your head against a wall.
00:25:17
And an AI bot has stolen my name.
00:25:20
Jason English (Host): Already.
00:25:20
Vanessa Peters: Yeah.
00:25:21
This summer I encountered the problem.
00:25:23
So I have begun to file for trademark,
but it's like, I mean, where does it end?
00:25:28
This is not.
00:25:28
What I signed up for, I
signed up to make music,
00:25:31
Jason English (Host):
Yeah, you just want to play
00:25:32
Vanessa Peters: not to fight robots.
00:25:35
Jason English (Host): That was
not on your bingo card when
00:25:37
Vanessa Peters: No, definitely not.
00:25:39
Jason English (Host): Well, alright.
00:25:40
Vanessa Peters: Wild, huh?
00:25:41
Jason English (Host): Yeah, that, yeah.
00:25:42
Cause in some respects, the technology
advancements has probably enabled a
00:25:48
lot of art and music to be distributed
00:25:52
Vanessa Peters: Sure.
00:25:52
Jason English (Host): To broader audience
and there's more accessibility, but
00:25:55
then there's the other side of it.
00:25:56
Vanessa Peters: Sure.
00:25:57
Unfortunately, it was also distributed
to troll farms in Malaysia or whatever.
00:26:01
Jason English (Host): it's true.
00:26:02
It's
00:26:02
Vanessa Peters: I mean, it's true.
00:26:03
It's crazy.
00:26:04
I have this one song that came
out on a record in 2003 that
00:26:07
I, I don't like it at all.
00:26:08
In fact, if I could remove the, if
I could easily remove the album from
00:26:12
Spotify would, I mean, it was my
first record, I didn't know what I
00:26:14
was doing, but somehow some weird bot
activity started happening in Jakarta.
00:26:19
And, um, a bot was playing
that song constantly.
00:26:21
We still haven't figured out why
and like to what nefarious end.
00:26:26
But for the longest time it
was in my top 10 of my Spotify.
00:26:28
And I was like, I don't
want this song in my top 10.
00:26:30
I can't get it out of there without
having to file a takedown, you know?
00:26:35
And it's like, I don't, I don't
actually want to take down the record.
00:26:37
I just don't want.
00:26:38
want, you
00:26:39
know, and it's like, what is this
strange, bizarre world we live in?
00:26:42
I don't know.
00:26:43
Jason English (Host): how
do you make sense of it all?
00:26:44
Vanessa Peters: I mean, you
don't, you just try to, I mean,
00:26:47
Jason English (Host): For you, is
it I'm going to tour, tour, tour?
00:26:50
Or is it, I'm going to put
albums out and, do it that way?
00:26:54
Is it the merchandise?
00:26:55
Is it festivals like this?
00:26:57
How do you prioritize
your, your priorities,
00:27:00
Vanessa Peters: used to be
merchandise was part of it.
00:27:02
But I've gotten to where I really
don't want to make stuff anymore.
00:27:04
Like I make the bare minimum of
vinyl that they will let me print.
00:27:08
I mean, because I just, I, I hate.
00:27:10
The impact that my unsold things
are going to have in the future.
00:27:14
I hate the idea of, CDs and
landfills and whatever else.
00:27:17
Also it irritates me that
we are told as artists that
00:27:22
Our music isn't worth anything.
00:27:23
People don't have to pay me
for my music, but they'll pay
00:27:26
me 30 Dollars for a t shirt.
00:27:28
What is that?
00:27:28
I'm not Lands End.
00:27:30
I'm not the gap.
00:27:31
You paid the gap 30 for a t shirt.
00:27:33
You paid me 30 for a vinyl or don't
do whatever, but like, why should
00:27:37
I have to make key chains?To Make a
Living, that's, that's absurd, right?
00:27:41
We can all agree that's very silly.
00:27:42
I would love it if touring made enough
money to be sensical, but it, it isn't
00:27:48
for me anyway, it was going pretty
well prior to COVID, but it cratered
00:27:52
pretty hard after that, just because
of, in part because of where I'm
00:27:56
located and, uh, a variety of things.
00:27:59
We'll see if this, if this record helps.
00:28:01
Just kind of launch it back off again.
00:28:02
And if it doesn't, it's okay, um, we've,
we've both kind of, I say we both because
00:28:07
my husband is my, he's also the producer,
he plays drums in the band as well.
00:28:11
Uh, he's the recording engineer.
00:28:12
So, you know, we, we, we plan these
records as a team and we've both kind
00:28:16
of decided at this point, like we make
them for ourselves and for the little
00:28:21
loyal cache of listeners that we have.
00:28:24
And then like, if other
people find it, that's great.
00:28:26
And that's, that's, that is why I come
to things like 30A because you're likely
00:28:30
to be in front of a room full of captive
listeners that maybe weren't there to see
00:28:34
you, but might be interested in finding
out more about your music after they go
00:28:37
Jason English (Host): people
appreciate the stories behind
00:28:38
the songs and the lyrics.
00:28:40
And obviously you care, you know, about
the meaning and, , what that entails.
00:28:46
So the rest of the year, obviously
the album comes out next month.
00:28:49
What, what are your goals
the rest of the year?
00:28:50
We
00:28:51
Vanessa Peters: We have some touring in
March, in February and March in Europe.
00:28:55
And then I would like to come
back, uh, in the summer or the
00:28:59
fall for some shows over here.
00:29:01
But, life is complicated where, I mean, I,
I have a day job as well, and, it's just
00:29:06
kind of a lot of juggling travel in the
summer is expensive and when the planes
00:29:11
are oversold and et cetera, et cetera.
00:29:13
So we'll see.
00:29:14
Jason English (Host): What's your day job?
00:29:15
Vanessa Peters: It's, uh, you know.
00:29:16
Magic, creating magic
00:29:18
Jason English (Host): Like Mary, like Mary
00:29:19
Vanessa Peters: Mary Poppins, yeah.
00:29:21
I do a lot of, wriggling my nose
and making rooms snap into place,
00:29:24
Jason English (Host): Okay,
well that's, that's interesting.
00:29:27
Vanessa Peters: world will just
have to wonder what my day job is.
00:29:29
Jason English (Host): man.
00:29:29
I didn't expect that, but all right.
00:29:31
Well, good for you.
00:29:32
I love that.
00:29:33
I mean, I respect the hustle,
you know, like this is not
00:29:36
easy what you're doing from a
00:29:38
Vanessa Peters: Oh no, this is full time.
00:29:39
And then I also do something else full
time as well, which is kind of crazy.
00:29:42
I recognize that, but I feel lucky to be
able to still be doing it after 2020.
00:29:46
And after, just in general, it's, it's
better to err on the side of gratitude,
00:29:50
Jason English (Host): Does music
mean something different to you
00:29:52
today than it did when you started?
00:29:54
Vanessa Peters: I think I, I both, I both
love it and, am frustrated by it in,
00:30:01
in equal measure more than I once was.
00:30:03
Probably, I think pr in the past it
was a, it was nothing but potential.
00:30:09
The road ahead was paved with
possibilities and now it's, it's
00:30:14
become a bit more clear that
00:30:15
it will be difficult, um, to.
00:30:18
To springboard into , making
a sustainable living in music.
00:30:20
Let's put it at this point in my life and
career is probably not going to happen.
00:30:26
And that was a little hard to
come to terms with just cause I.
00:30:29
Cause I did work so
hard at it for so long,
00:30:31
But letting go of that also kind of
frees you to make the records that
00:30:36
you want and to, you know, release them
on your own schedule and to sort of
00:30:40
you know, like I was saying earlier,
so I'm, I'm working towards that.
00:30:43
I'm, I'm working towards sort of
just accepting the fact that I
00:30:46
do lead an enormously, privileged
and blessed life, whether or not.
00:30:52
my records ever sell another copy, and
as long as some people out there, listen
00:30:56
to them and connect with them, then
that, then, then that's enough, you know,
00:31:00
Jason English (Host): Well, we appreciate
your music and we're glad that you're
00:31:02
doing it and we're excited for the
new album Would you play a song or
00:31:05
Vanessa Peters: Sure.
00:31:06
Sure.
00:31:06
Be happy to.
00:31:07
Jason English (Host): Thanks,
00:31:07
Vanessa Peters: You're welcome.
00:31:08
Thank you.
00:39:06
Jason English (Host): Thanks so
much for joining us for another
00:39:08
episode of Curious Goldfish.
00:39:10
Please follow and subscribe to
the podcast and on social media.
00:39:14
Also, tell your music
loving friends about us too.
00:39:17
Until next time, stay curious.
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A Chat with James Mastro
Embracing the Dawn of a New Error with James Mastro In this episode of Curious Goldfish, host Jason English delves into a rich conversation with veteran musician James Mastro, primarily discussing Mastro's first solo album, 'Dawn of a New Error.' Mastro, known for his long career as a side musici...
A Chat with Jacob Furr - Part 1
Navigating Grief, Growth, and Creativity with Jacob Furr This episode of Curious Goldfish features host Jason English in conversation with Jacob Furr, a 38-year-old singer-songwriter from Fort Worth, Texas. They discuss Furr's integration of his personal experiences, particularly the loss of his ...